“Windows 12” or what ever they choose to name it could be heavily ARM optimized.

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Lakados

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https://www.windowslatest.com/2023/...m-chip-macbook-with-new-arm-chips-windows-12/

https://www.windowslatest.com/2023/...m-chip-macbook-with-new-arm-chips-windows-12/

Microsoft has apparently been hiding a “Microsoft Silicon” department which recently got another series of budget increases as well as a hiring spree.

Reports are they want to release a special version of “Windows 12” that will make heavy use of ARM and on chip accelerators to compete directly against the Apple Mx lineup.

Combine this with Microsoft and Amazon both announcing that some of their existing datacenter’s will be refreshing with ARM and not x86 due to demand and there may be something here we aren’t seeing.
 
Lakados said:
https://www.windowslatest.com/2023/...m-chip-macbook-with-new-arm-chips-windows-12/

https://www.windowslatest.com/2023/...m-chip-macbook-with-new-arm-chips-windows-12/

Microsoft has apparently been hiding a “Microsoft Silicon” department which recently got another series of budget increases as well as a hiring spree.

Reports are they want to release a special version of “Windows 12” that will make heavy use of ARM and on chip accelerators to compete directly against the Apple Mx lineup.

Combine this with Microsoft and Amazon both announcing that some of their existing datacenter’s will be refreshing with ARM and not x86 due to demand and there may be something here we aren’t seeing.
Click to expand...
Not completely surprising. Qualcomm's PC-oriented Snapdragons have been disappointments, and Windows on ARM is pretty lackluster as well. You take a performance hit and reduced app compatibility with few real gains. Apple's M-series chips aren't perfect, but they represented a huge speed boost for the Mac and offered perks like exceptional battery life.

The challenge, of course, is to get more developers writing ARM-native Windows apps and to bolster the performance of non-native apps. And I'm not sure the former will be easy. Microsoft's approach to ARM still has traces of Steve Ballmer's "but it's Windows!" mindset, where the company assumes all humans love Windows and will naturally follow wherever it wants to go, no matter how mediocre the platform may be. It hasn't (yet) understood that Apple's approach is succeeding precisely because the company is completely and genuinely committed to making a good ARM experience; for Microsoft, it's been a side project.
 
As much as I hate it, it is probably true that at some point we will be forced to move off of x86 or be left behind.

I had hoped something other than ARM, an architecture tied to royalties would take it's place, but I guess that was too much to ask.

At the very least I hope the future still allows us to build custom machines and upgrade and maintain them ourselves. Otherwise I'm out.

A tech world full of nothing but super thin SoC trash is so counter to why I love tech (the tinkering and customization part) that I would have no reason to stay.

By all means, standardize CPU architectures, GPU API's, interfaces and expansion ports, but foster an environment where everything else is fully configurable. That's literally the only reason the PC platform is interesting.

Uniform Systems on a Chip kills absolutely everything that is interesting about computing, IMHO. It has already gone tool far with mother boards with everything integrated instead of just a large number of expansion slots so you can roll your own.
 
Don't stamp the Windows logo on it and allow it to be an utter failure for a little while.
 
Maybe it is overreading from the job offer,

Or more so we are from the article point by the op, Microsoft as a lot of clients devices (Xbox, Surface, Hololens, project Volterra), some already run or ran on arm. For example:
https://www.gizmochina.com/2021/10/15/microsoft-planning-on-making-own-custom-cpu/
or
https://www.gizmochina.com/2020/12/21/microsoft-is-reportedly-working-on-its-own-arm-based-chipset/

Some of those post are for the Cloud and AI, were it is already known that Microsoft work on custom chips:
https://www.theverge.com/2023/4/18/23687912/microsoft-athena-ai-chips-nvidia

One of those jobs post used to speculate say:
We are a growing team of engineers on a mission to develop revolutionary designs and ship first-to-market products. Azure, XBOX, Surface, and HoloLens incorporate our internally developed silicon components.
One of the other:
We are looking for a Principal Design Engineer to work in the dynamic Microsoft Silicon team, working on custom and semi-custom Application Specific Integrated Cirtuit (ASICs) for Microsoft Cloud.

That all well known and already out in some case, there are people working on the next Xbox SOC regardless of anything else. Maybe at the same time they look if there is promise for an x86 desktop replacement for Windows 12, but maybe not that much or maybe not at all.

The latest Ryzen 7040 cpu:
https://wccftech.com/amd-phoenix-ry...ntel-same-power-gaming-efficiency-leadership/

Seem to keep under 3.2 watt during video playback or the other end a 7950x can score 19,000 in Cinebench R23 using only 35 watt (just CPU) an Apple M2 does 8740 using 23 watt for the whole system from the wall probably exact same ballpark efficacy wise if not a significant win for AMD, the x3d show incredible performance at low power for gaming.

Maybe at some point for some things.... but x86 with the current compete between 2 giants show leap of rapid impressive advancement in the last 10 years, just thinks what a thread of Epyc can do by watt.
 
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Zarathustra[H] said:
As much as I hate it, it is probably true that at some point we will be forced to move off of x86 or be left behind.

I had hoped something other than ARM, an architecture tied to royalties would take it's place, but I guess that was too much to ask.

At the very least I hope the future still allows us to build custom machines and upgrade and maintain them ourselves. Otherwise I'm out.

A tech world full of nothing but super thin SoC trash is so counter to why I love tech (the tinkering and customization part) that I would have no reason to stay.

By all means, standardize CPU architectures, GPU API's, interfaces and expansion ports, but foster an environment where everything else is fully configurable. That's literally the only reason the PC platform is interesting.

Uniform Systems on a Chip kills absolutely everything that is interesting about computing, IMHO. It has already gone tool far with mother boards with everything integrated instead of just a large number of expansion slots so you can roll your own.
Click to expand...
I don't think SoC-style machines are necessarily trash. Apple's M1/M2 Macs have generally been superb. It's just that these form factors shouldn't be the only options in the industry.

Let's put it this way: I love the thought of a Mac mini as my next desktop. It's fast, compact and very quiet. But I also want there to be room for folks who'd rather have a fully modular gaming desktop or pro workstation.
 
Zarathustra[H] said:
As much as I hate it, it is probably true that at some point we will be forced to move off of x86 or be left behind.

I had hoped something other than ARM, an architecture tied to royalties would take it's place, but I guess that was too much to ask.

At the very least I hope the future still allows us to build custom machines and upgrade and maintain them ourselves. Otherwise I'm out.

A tech world full of nothing but super thin SoC trash is so counter to why I love tech (the tinkering and customization part) that I would have no reason to stay.

By all means, standardize CPU architectures, GPU API's, interfaces and expansion ports, but foster an environment where everything else is fully configurable. That's literally the only reason the PC platform is interesting.

Uniform Systems on a Chip kills absolutely everything that is interesting about computing, IMHO. It has already gone tool far with mother boards with everything integrated instead of just a large number of expansion slots so you can roll your own.
Click to expand...
I expect socketed or slotted SOCs to become a thing in the nearish future for consumers, they are already a thing for enterprise and manufacturing.
 
I'm comfortable with the name Windows 12. Windows 11 sounds a bit awkward to me. And Windows 13, well that just sounds like a horror show. lol
 
Lakados said:
I expect socketed or slotted SOCs to become a thing in the nearish future for consumers, they are already a thing for enterprise and manufacturing.
Click to expand...
It all depends on what SoC means. For some definition, current x86 cpus are already SoCs. Especially for those with integrated graphics, you need a rom, and ram, maybe an ethernet PHY, and a ton of passives. The AMD A300/X300 chipset isn't really a chipset, it works because the cpus are SoCs.
 
toast0 said:
It all depends on what SoC means. For some definition, current x86 cpus are already SoCs. Especially for those with integrated graphics, you need a rom, and ram, maybe an ethernet PHY, and a ton of passives. The AMD A300/X300 chipset isn't really a chipset, it works because the cpus are SoCs.
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I’m hearing CPU, iGPU, Storage, Ram, and everything the board it slots into basically contains the physical ports and power delivery.

Easiest example would be the NVidia Jetson modules and their developer boards.
But I’m hearing AMD playing with a similar concept for OEM laptops, think a high end raspberry Pi with a 150w upper limit that OEM’s could just drop into a compatible socket in a generic laptop frame.
 
Lakados said:
Reports are they want to release a special version of “Windows 12” that will make heavy use of ARM and on chip accelerators to compete directly against the Apple Mx lineup.
Click to expand...
Didn't Microsoft already announce this?
Combine this with Microsoft and Amazon both announcing that some of their existing datacenter’s will be refreshing with ARM and not x86 due to demand and there may be something here we aren’t seeing.
Click to expand...
Yea, Microsoft wanting to lock down their ecosystem even more so. Not like Windows ARM hasn't been tried to death. First time Microsoft did this, they prevent people from side loading apps. Microsoft surface ARM based products were also a big failure. Besides the lack of software, the Surface products were like Apple devices but even worse when it comes to repairability and upgradability. What little x86 compatibility Microsoft put, it was terrible. Just wait for AMD's Mobile 7040 and Intel's Meteor Lake chips, it'll put an end to this ARM nonsense.
 
I don't think that better Windows ARM optimization has to go hand-in-hand with some sort of "demise of x86" nonsense. I'd like to see them do it the "right" way, which to me means keeping Windows as an open platform and retaining their focus on legacy and compatibility. Have the ability to run ARM programs on x86 and vise-versa via emulation that is transparent to the end-user, to the point where most users could use either type of CPU and not even know what's in their computer, just that they can run whatever software or app they want and "it works".
 
Twisted Kidney said:
We've only just reached the best time to use Windows 10, Micro$haft isn't going to do anymore big "feature" updates.

Broken is not a feature.
Click to expand...

To be fair, Windows 10 and Windows 11 have the most efficient kernels and smallest drive footprints of any modern Windows installs, and the addition of other features such as "game mode" attempt to further prioritize high priority processing over low priority processing in ways older versions couldn't.

If they only hadn't added all of the phone/tablet-os type of bloat at the same time. Why should my professional Workstation have an Xbox game bar I never intend to use installed? What if I don't want Cortana, a photo app, a calendar app or a chat ap installed.

The kernel itself of 10 and 11 is the best they've ever made, they just paired it with other unnecessary junk in their attempt to create a windows "ecosystem" instead of being happy with just creating an "operating system".

If I could, I'd have Windows 7 but with the kernel and scheduled from Windows 11.
 
Zarathustra[H] said:
As much as I hate it, it is probably true that at some point we will be forced to move off of x86 or be left behind.

I had hoped something other than ARM, an architecture tied to royalties would take it's place, but I guess that was too much to ask.

At the very least I hope the future still allows us to build custom machines and upgrade and maintain them ourselves. Otherwise I'm out.

A tech world full of nothing but super thin SoC trash is so counter to why I love tech (the tinkering and customization part) that I would have no reason to stay.

By all means, standardize CPU architectures, GPU API's, interfaces and expansion ports, but foster an environment where everything else is fully configurable. That's literally the only reason the PC platform is interesting.

Uniform Systems on a Chip kills absolutely everything that is interesting about computing, IMHO. It has already gone tool far with mother boards with everything integrated instead of just a large number of expansion slots so you can roll your own.
Click to expand...
You might enjoy this ARM CPU/motherboard that isn't just thin SoC trash.



I'm with you on that, everything on a single chip like a smartphone or SBC is far less interesting, and is counter to why I have enjoyed computer technology all these decades as well.
 
Red Falcon said:
You might enjoy this ARM CPU/motherboard that isn't just thin SoC trash.



I'm with you on that, everything on a single chip like a smartphone or SBC is far less interesting, and is counter to why I have enjoyed computer technology all these decades as well.
Click to expand...

But it is coming I would fully expect at some point a consumer grade version of OAM2 or 3 to make it so any vendor could make an SoC that could drop into a wide array of boards.
 
Red Falcon said:
You might enjoy this ARM CPU/motherboard that isn't just thin SoC trash.



I'm with you on that, everything on a single chip like a smartphone or SBC is far less interesting, and is counter to why I have enjoyed computer technology all these decades as well.
Click to expand...

I'll have to read up on it. Hopefully this will become more common place and not an exception.

Still wish it were an open arch instead of one contaminated with royalty terms like ARM though. RISC-V would be better.
 
Zarathustra[H] said:
I'll have to read up on it. Hopefully this will become more common place and not an exception.

Still wish it were an open arch instead of one contaminated with royalty terms like ARM though. RISC-V would be better.
Click to expand...
I like the idea of a common socket or slot that any vendor could develop a chip for so we could go out and buy a Broadcom, Qualcomm, Intel, AMD, or what ever RISC-V startup pops up along the way then we just pick boards based on the IO we want and away we go.
The current OAM 1.5 spec allows for up to 450w on air and 600w max with liquid cooling. Intel, AMD, and NVidia all currently support it and the APU options there would be dope.
 
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