Where are the 8K Monitors?

Still a bit wondering about this 240 Hz mode. AFAIK, the only panel with actual different refresh rate with different resolutions is the new LG OLED one, for the rest, it is only "input electronics" paired with what is still a 120 Hz panel..

Never heard of a LCD having something similar. Or perhaps it exists just that I dont know about it?
 
So now we have learned that the QN900D has improved zone count to last year despite having the exact same number of zones as last year and also that the design is improved to last year despite looking exactly the same as last year :)
 
This is what it's about for me, if the claims come through anyway.. .

elvn said:
. . .
Click to expand...

The AI upscaling could be that great for media upscaled to "8k" detail and greater motion handling especially, but also gaming upscaling. Supposedly the AI chip makes the jump to 8k for media more detailed than previous gens in order to "make 8k worth it" (for 4k media and streams). It's also the first 8k to do 1080p upscaling well, which they are touting.

AI processing is the way of the future. Nvidia has also said as much. Upgrades in AI will probably be as important as upgrades in HZ and gpu power at times in the future (especially on nvidia gpus).

If the 900D does native 240Hz 4k (upscaled to 8k) that alone is way better for gaming than the 900C's 144hz (which was only capable of 120Hz off of nvidia gpus according to Rtings), and would be one less trade-off vs the current crop of 4k 240Hz desktop gaming monitors.

The AI could also shape the brightness/color output and FALD zone management better potentially.

. . . .

Mainly 240hz 4k gaming while being able to swap to 8k worth of desktop/app real-estate, potentially with better parameter management, FALD backlight shaping, and supposedly way more noticeably higher detail upscaling of 4k with the new chip. Maybe 8k 115hz or 120hz off of a 5090 gpu potentially too.

From what I read, the 900c was supposed to do 144hz 4k upscaled to 8k, but that it was only capable of 120hz off of a nvidia gpu. With more gaming monitors moving to 240hz, 240hz 4k capability on the 900D would be a good feature if it pans out.
 
improwise said:
Still a bit wondering about this 240 Hz mode. AFAIK, the only panel with actual different refresh rate with different resolutions is the new LG OLED one, for the rest, it is only "input electronics" paired with what is still a 120 Hz panel..

Never heard of a LCD having something similar. Or perhaps it exists just that I dont know about it?
Click to expand...
It's been done years ago. Zisworks made a custom scaler hardware for a few 4K @ 60 Hz TVs, that actually had 4K @ 120 Hz capable LCD panels. The custom hardware allowed 4K @ 120 Hz, 1080p @ 240Hz, 720p @ 300Hz, and 540p @ 480Hz. I don't think the panels actually were capable of keeping up with 480 Hz refresh rates but they could handle the input.

I don't know that any actual display manufacturer has done the same thing though.
 
It's possible that they are doing some trickery to get "4k 240hz". The AI chip might still make that viable, but hopefully that's not the case and they can do native 4k 240hz 16:9 and upscale that to 8k directly. They did make a "1/2 8k" G95NC panel+circuitry capable of 240Hz, so who knows.

Some of those youtube reviewers replied directly to questions in the comments section saying that it is true 4k 240hz though and not interpolation.

Until we get a more fleshed out and detailed in house review of one, won't be certain.
 
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Not sure if this has been posted already, it seems like some kind of actual review. Albeit one that again claims that the number of zones to be "One of the highest such numbers I’ve seen in the TV world to date." despite being exactly the same as last year. 240 hz isn't mentioned at all and listed as 144 hz maximum.

https://www.trustedreviews.com/reviews/samsung-qe75qn900d

And yes, he also reviewed the QN900C last year and should probably know that it had the exact number of zones as the QN900D. It is almost like they are both reading from a script...
 
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Different FALD screens with similar fald zone counts can have very different performances based on how they are implemented. Even the same screen can change in performance across firmware upgrades.

Yes the zones may be the same, and much higher zone counts would be better - but the AI shaping of the FALD zones and AI shaping of the parameter outputs is supposedly greatly enhanced. That and if they do 240Hz 4k, plus upscaled better than any previous gen, would both be huge gains vs the 900c along with greater than 4k detail upscaling on media to "8k".



. .

Like I said in previous replies:

AI processing is the way of the future. Nvidia has also said as much. Upgrades in AI will probably be as important as upgrades in HZ and gpu power at times in the future (especially on nvidia gpus).

If the 900D does native 240Hz 4k (upscaled to 8k) that alone is way better for gaming than the 900C's 144hz (which was only capable of 120Hz off of nvidia gpus according to Rtings), and would be one less trade-off vs the current crop of 4k 240Hz desktop gaming monitors.

The AI could also shape the brightness/color output and FALD zone management better potentially.

. . .

Nvidia AI: A Peek into the Future of Gaming and AI

https://ticktocktech.com/computer-repair-austin/nvidia-ai-gaming-future/

. . .

I'm not saying it will come through on it's marketed promises or be without caveats though. Will have to see it put through it's paces. Very interested in seeing RTings compare it vs the 900C and other screens. All the links you are contributing to th is thread are appreciated, incidentally. (y)
 
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Only time will tell I guess. What worries me a bit is that the big improvements of the QN900D sounds really similar to the ones last years, where AI was also supposed to make everything different. The problem with local dimming zones is that in the end it should come down to physics, no AI in the world can change the number of pixels a specific zone has to handle, and then it would always have to be a compromise between all the content shown by those pixels. Sure, better processing might make the zones react faster and adapt better, but something like a starfield should still be a challenge which comes down to either lower brightness or raised blacklevels.
 
improwise said:
This is true for Samsungs QDOLEDs but not sure I have ever seen it mentioned for their LCDs nor that I thought of it as being a problem when I had one of them at home.
Click to expand...

Yea that's not what I wanna hear.

:dead:

The Bravia Z9K ? 8k has a glass front to my knowledge. washing=no problem.
 
Hah I'd never put ammonia/windex on any of my screens. You'd probably be better off boxing one behind glass like some screens used on decks patios in drinking establishments.
 
elvn said:
Hah I'd never put ammonia/windex on any of my screens. You'd probably be better off boxing one behind glass like some screens used on decks patios in drinking establishments.
Click to expand...

Yea I've never used anything other than a damp microfiber tower on the soft side. Worried about any chemicals might mar the screen lol.
 
improwise said:
Don't remember if this has been posted before but for anyone considering going 8K as a monitors, there are some good points here and it seems like he is continuing to update it. Don't miss the comments as they also are interesting.

https://scottstuff.net/posts/2023/10/10/samsung-8k/
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What this guy is suggesting to do on a large 8k I've been doing for a long while now except on 4k. Game mode + VRR just add in +HDR and of course 144hz. So for anyone that does any gaming I would stay away from the 60hz he's suggesting at least 144 or especially the 240hz 8k possibly coming in the 900Dis what we are looking for.
 
That screen, even though it came out in april 2022, is outdated in tech already. Still could be useful though, and prob could be found for a bargain price. Forcing VRR game mode is a work around to disable the dithering on those 700B from what I've read.

I use three 4k screens in PLP layout. 60hz VA portrait + 120hz OLED landscape + 60hz VA portrait. 8k's appeal to me is the multi-window functionality without bezels, up to 4x 4k desktop space and high PPD. If I can get high hz gaming with really good upscaling on one that would increase the value to me greatly as an all-in-one solution. The 55" 165hz 4k ark was marketed as being a desktop replacement but having quad of 1080p screen space is not a true modern multi-monitor desktop replacement, and even if sitting at the ~ 40" center of curvature on one you'd only be getting around 62 PPD which while ok is nothing stellar pixel density wise.

Hopefully modern 8k on a 5000 series will start to be able to do 115hz - 120hz 10bit 444/rgb so that you could do ~ 120hz windowed gaming while still having the rest of the screen available for desktop/apps . . and also be able to do higher hz 4k (144hz - 240Hz) full screen with 2024 AI upscaling even on current 3000/4000 gen gpus. If it was 1000R curve it would be even better but it is what it is.
 
elvn said:
That screen, even though it came out in april 2022, is outdated in tech already. Still could be useful though, and prob could be found for a bargain price. Forcing VRR game mode is a work around to disable the dithering on those 700B from what I've read.
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It is necessary on all modern Samsung LCD TVs AFAIK, at least it is for both 900B and 900C. Why enabling VRR would improve quality even for static content is beyond me but it obviously is.

The QN900D is interesting but currenlty the QN900C is sold for less than half of the QN900D and I seriously doubt it is twice as good. And fi it is, one could probably buy that for 50% off during BF.
 
improwise said:
It is necessary on all modern Samsung LCD TVs AFAIK, at least it is for both 900B and 900C. Why enabling VRR would improve quality even for static content is beyond me but it obviously is.

The QN900D is interesting but currenlty the QN900C is sold for less than half of the QN900D and I seriously doubt it is twice as good. And fi it is, one could probably buy that for 50% off during BF.
Click to expand...

They definitely have apple pricing tier, at least at early adopter hiked release prices. They usually drop in price a considerable chunk (around $1000 less) after only 3 months and a bit more at 5 months (and even more than that approaching a year from release).

I'm fine with waiting it out until it cools off a little, plus I might get the samsung discount on top of that. If it even lives up to the hype in the first place.

. .
 
elvn said:
Hah I'd never put ammonia/windex on any of my screens. You'd probably be better off boxing one behind glass like some screens used on decks patios in drinking establishments.
Click to expand...

xDiVolatilX said:
Yea I've never used anything other than a damp microfiber tower on the soft side. Worried about any chemicals might mar the screen lol.
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------------

Haha !! I almost don't believe that.
---

I've owned a hundred different screens, TV's and monitors both, from dually 15" CRT's onwards. Without exception, every single one of them has been Windex'd multiple times.....Even the $$ Eizo medical monitor I run in my arcade box.
Don't be afraid of Windex, it's just faster 'soap-n-water'. Also, a well worn terry towel beats microfiber everytime !

I'm not so worried about the solvent choice for cleaning, it's a physical thing from what I saw in the review. "Do not touch the screen".
I'm very gentle washing a screen, but if the outer glass touches the LED's and instantly wrecks 'em, that's poor design.
o_O
----------------------------

elvn :

I help run a drinking establishment, I know exactly what you mean !
I'm also a fabricator, I'm thinking of an add-on aluminum frame with gorilla glass.
We'll see what happens, I really want to run 8k.
 
BrainEater said:
Woop !
Good news everyone !

Took some digging but; straight from the horses mouth :

https://innovate.samsungdisplay.com/blog/how-to-clean-a-qd-oled-or-an-oled-screen/

TLDR;
Cleaning QD-OLED is no problem, neither is Windex ( although they say 70% ethanol works better)

(y)
Click to expand...

I'd never put chemicals on any of my screens but knock yourself out .


Have I ruined my TV's screen? Wiped it down with a microfiber cloth & window cleaner. I learned too late cleaner is a no-go. Samsung q70b (QLED)​

https://www.reddit.com/r/4kTV/comments/zzife3/have_i_ruined_my_tvs_screen_wiped_it_down_with_a/

9h874lv1559a1_jpg.png
 
Wow that's ugly !! Definitely a bad reaction.

As I mentioned earlier, the solvent doesn't matter to me, I can use distilled water.
It was the "gentle rubbing" I was worried about. heh
-----
At this point it looks like physical contact, albeit gentle is ok, that's really all I care about.
I got a little spooked by some reviews, but after further digging it was always 'screen-being-poked' or 'screen-being-impacted', not "I gently wiped it"...

Once I actually pay for the TV, I'll be able to request direct technical support regarding cleaning, I'm less worried now.
A little atmospheric contamination should be no problem, at least I don't have kids throwing stuff at it !!

:ROFLMAO:
 
Microfiber towel on the soft side damp with hot water and if you're feeling wild and crazy perhaps a drop of dish soap and it will clean spotless lol
 
xDiVolatilX said:
Microfiber towel on the soft side damp with hot water and if you're feeling wild and crazy perhaps a drop of dish soap and it will clean spotless lol
Click to expand...
Yeah... I'm not touching my screens with any kind of chemicals. I don't have the compulsive need to touch my screens with my bare hands like some people seem to have, though.
 
Must have forgotten this but it probably explains why text never felt quite right to me when trying out the QN900B and QN900C even though it kind of looked OK at the same time. It also reminded me that with Game mode and VRR enabled text improved, but it instead created some kind of dithering effect on images. Note that this is mostly a dark mode problem, which might be a deal braker for some though.

https://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/samsung/qn900b-8k-qled#comment-88255

https://www.rtings.com/assets/pages/bVHzQQdw/off-angle-large.jpg

I would imagine the same is true for the QN900D as well.

I guess there is a reason for the massive curve on the Neo G9 after all...should be mentioned though that I found the Neo G9 to be almost as bad with dark mode but mostly due to the very limited vertical viewing angles. Something like a terminal window had noticable gradients in dark mode.
 
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QN900D literature

Extremely clear motion
Motion Xcelerator 240Hz⁴
Stream your content with amazingly smooth motion and virtually no lag or blur. Get uninterrupted action with crisp visuals rendered at blazing-fast speeds up to 240 frames per second for any content.⁴
⁴240Hz is limited to 4K resolution and requires compatible content connection from compatible PCs. Motion Xcelerator 240Hz is sometimes called Motion Xcelerator Turbo 8K Pro.
 
xDiVolatilX said:
I wonder if it can do 120 at 8k though....
Click to expand...

Even if the display can, it can't do anything over 60Hz 8k on a nvidia gpu through to the 4000 series, at least natively. That's not because of hdmi 2.1 bandwidth limitations but rather because of how nvidia chose to allot the bandwidth between ports on their gpus.

"NVIDIA's specs for the GeForce RTX 4090 list the maximum capabilities as "4 independent displays at 4K 120Hz using DP or HDMI, 2 independent displays at 4K 240Hz or 8K 60Hz with DSC using DP or HDMI."

According to the LTT calculator linked in the comments I made earlier that are quoted below, 120fpsHz at 8k 444/RGB, 10 bit is just over the hdmi 2.1 limit even at DSC 3.0 to 1 compression, but maybe they could squeeze it out of it (on a gpu capable of full hdmi 2.1 bandwidth, hopefully the 5000 series). Idk if LTT calc is including HDR overhead though. Still could run DSC 3.x. Probably easier to just run 115Hz if that fits. Going to be tough to get higher fpsHz out of 8k anyway, though frame gen could help a lot, perhaps enough on isometric and easier to render games where greater than 100fpsHz would be possible. You could also drop to 8bit or 4:2:2, etc but that's not the best way to view things imo. I'd rather just run 115hz or whatever. Hopefully nvidia will have better bandwidth and allocation overall on the 5000 series. Some of the hurdles with multiple 240hz displays and some of the 8k stuff is not an issue on amd gpus I guess.

Still wondering what the 240Hz mode really means on these, whether it's some "fake 240hz", and either way, how well does it function in practice: e.g. what does it look like compared to a native 4k 240hz screen, what loss of detail vs. 8k native on a 8k screen. You'd have to compare it with pursuit camera as well since 240fpsHz cuts the sample-and-hold blur of the entire viewport during FoV movment by half compared to 120fpsHz. It's not as simple as a higher native resolution being more detailed in still shots, so it could be a matter of trade-offs or how you value the balance of benefits. (240 also gives more motion articulation, movement states, more detailed pathing, etc. as well). That is, assuming whatever game you are running is able to get 200fpsHz average or more, even at 4k. You wouldn't top out performance until 240fpsHz was your common framerate low though really, rather than average.

. . . . . . . .

elvn said:
The 8k on the 900D can only do 60Hz right now but I suspect that might be a limitation of the current gen of GPUS since the panel is 120hz / 240hz 4k. So maybe if gpus had enough bandwidth assigned to a single hdmi port it could do 8k 120hz using DSC. The 57" g95nc can do 120hz 7680x2160 with dsc, or 240hz off of dp 2.1 amd gpu - - but again that's probably because of the way nvidia alloted the ports on the gpu. HDMI 2.1 should be able to go higher with dsc if a card was designed for it.

From LTT calculator. It's 42.58 vs 41.92 at 10 bit RGB(444), so it could prob do 8k 120hz at 8 bit color, or if they did 3.25x DSC compression on 10bit or something. Also, could just run 115 Hz and it would fit hdmi 2.1 on DSC 3.0, RGB/444, 10bit, or run 99Hz at that but with DSC 2.5x. Not that native 8k gaming will get high fps. Would be cool if it could do 7680x2160 s-uw rez at relatively high hz for gaming too.

firefox_hChB6GTDAc.png
Click to expand...


. . . . . . .


. . . . . . .

elvn said:
. . .

From the responses in that Tech with KG thread, KG is saying that it is true 4k 240hz, but that the 8k can only do 60Hz. I haven't seen the true 240hz 4k verified elsewhere yet though. If it's true, I'm assuming that the 8k 60hz rather than 120hz capability is a limitation with the lanes on the gpu ports. Nvidia 4000 gpus similarly can't do multiple 4k 240hz screens. So perhaps that might change in the 5000 series.


from nvidia's 4090 page's spec sheet:

1 - Up to 4K 12-bit HDR at 240Hz with DP 1.4a + DSC or HDMI 2.1a + DSC. Up to 8K 12-bit HDR at 60Hz with DP 1.4a + DSC or HDMI 2.1a + DSC.

2 - As specified in HDMI 2.1a: up to 4K 240Hz or 8K 60Hz with DSC, Gaming VRR, HDR
Click to expand...

. . . .

From some of my other replies:

"NVIDIA's specs for the GeForce RTX 4090 list the maximum capabilities as "4 independent displays at 4K 120Hz using DP or HDMI, 2 independent displays at 4K 240Hz or 8K 60Hz with DSC using DP or HDMI." Could support be added as part of a driver update? That remains to be seen."
Click to expand...


Reddit user reply from a g95nc thread:
"I want to clarify how DSC works since I have yet to see anyone actually understand what is going on.
DSC uses display pipelines within the GPU silicon itself to compress the the image down. Ever notice how one or more display output ports will be disabled when using DSC at X resolution and Y frequency? That is because the GPU stealing those display lanes to process and compress the image.
So what does this mean? It means if the configuration, in silicon, does not allow for enough display output pipelines to to be used by a single output port, THAT is where the bottleneck occurs."

"Nividia's own spec notes that only 8k 60hz is feasible using DSC over HDMI 2.1 on their cards by disabling at least one port (it will just disable the one that isn't plugged in), so it's clear all the display pipelines are interconnected for use together. I suppose it may be possible to forcibly disable 2 ports to achieve a high enough internal bandwidth to deal with 240hz at 1/2 8k resolution, but again, that is also determined by the slicing and compression capabilities."
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
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xDiVolatilX said:
QN900D literature

Extremely clear motion
Motion Xcelerator 240Hz⁴
Stream your content with amazingly smooth motion and virtually no lag or blur. Get uninterrupted action with crisp visuals rendered at blazing-fast speeds up to 240 frames per second for any content.⁴
⁴240Hz is limited to 4K resolution and requires compatible content connection from compatible PCs. Motion Xcelerator 240Hz is sometimes called Motion Xcelerator Turbo 8K Pro.
Click to expand...
Which sadly does not say all that much with it being mostly Samsung invented terms combined with marketing jargon.
 
Yep......65".... Can't wait !!
---
improwise said:
Which sadly does not say all that much with it being mostly Samsung invented terms combined with marketing jargon.
Click to expand...
Haha....like AMD/Intel did to cpu TDP.

-----------------
So.
another question :
I have a 30 foot run from TV to video editing rig.
Think 8k/60 will go through 30 feet of HDMI 2.1 cable ?
 
BrainEater said:
Yep......65".... Can't wait !!
---

Haha....like AMD/Intel did to cpu TDP.

-----------------
So.
another question :
I have a 30 foot run from TV to video editing rig.
Think 8k/60 will go through 30 feet of HDMI 2.1 cable ?
Click to expand...

Worst case, at expense you can get a fiber hdmi cable but make sure to check reviews as some of them still under-perform.

I have a few good fiber hdmi 2.1 cables I run my laptop from, to my living room tv on occasion at 4k 120hz HDR. One is 15ft, the other is 30ft. I paid $38 for the 15, and $49 for the 30 ft one.

If you get a good one you probably wouldn't have a problem without a repeater until over 50 - 75', like if you had a 100' cable (though theoretically fiber should go really far).

The better reviewed ones go out of stock regularly though from the times I checked.

I may eventually run my pc rig from a basement storage room again someday, which I did years ago to a dual monitor setup using older gens of hdmi/dvi and mini-dp along with a usb ext. cable. They do also make fiber usb-c cables, so it would be easy to do a usb-c fiber run to a hub at my peripherals desk remotely from the pc along with the display cables being on the same remote run. As quiet as PC fans and case hardware can be, they will never be as silent as when they are in a different room 25' - 35' away - unless you turn the pc off of course. ;)
Also heat in the display+peripherals room, and in some cases air quality, hot components blowing hot air over and out of a hot box full of pcb/capacitors/plastic/insulation/rubber/dust.
 
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AI is a huge facet already, and will be of everything going forward. I think it will be as big of a gain as gpu power and hz, etc at some points upgrade to upgrade, perhaps larger (e.g DLSS, more advanced framegen). It also has huge potential in game engines, game worlds and their artificial beings/personalities/stories, game world design and art, and online game server mechanic's prediction/interpolation/simulation methods of compensating for the delays in online gaming server based gaming.

The question is, what, if anything does that AI upscaler do for 4k 240hz gaming on the 900D? Is it applying AI deep learning style upscaling kind of like DLSS ? They indicated it is on media, which is great, but idk if it is on gaming. If it is applying AI learning upscaling on games to upscale 4k to higher detail quasi "8k", what does it do when DLSS is already applied? Would it be a more detailed/cleaner/better result to use no nvidia DLSS and let the tv get a higher detail native 4k to start with (to avoid essentially AI upscaling the content twice) ?

It has some game presets it will select by type, but you can manually switch between the presets. He didn't say a lot about what it was doing other than typical parameters like contrast, brightness etc., like switching between named picture modes manually on media does on tvs.

He also mentioned the possibility of AI doing screen calibration at one point.
 
elvn said:
AI is a huge facet already, and will be of everything going forward. I think it will be as big of a gain as gpu power and hz, etc at some points upgrade to upgrade, perhaps larger (e.g DLSS, more advanced framegen). It also has huge potential in game engines, game worlds and their artificial beings/personalities/stories, game world design and art, and online game server mechanic's prediction/interpolation/simulation methods of compensating for the delays in online gaming server based gaming.
Click to expand...
Or on the flip side, it ends up being something almost no company implements just like a lot of features. We still barely have any physics based simulations in most games, it's messed up that the most advanced physics based gameplay is in Tears of the Kingdom on the Nintendo Switch. AI has huge potential but whether companies start utilizing it after the hype dies in a few years is another question. I expect it will be more of a thing in the content creation than it is in gameplay.

elvn said:
The question is, what, if anything does that AI upscaler do for 4k 240hz gaming on the 900D? Is it applying AI deep learning style upscaling kind of like DLSS ? They indicated it is on media, which is great, but idk if it is on gaming. If it is applying AI learning upscaling on games to upscale 4k to higher detail quasi "8k", what does it do when DLSS is already applied? Would it be a more detailed/cleaner/better result to use no nvidia DLSS and let the tv get a higher detail native 4k to start with (to avoid essentially AI upscaling the content twice) ?
Click to expand...
Knowing TV companies, it's either disabled for game mode, or it's on for everything and causes higher input lag because lag is not really a concern for movies and TV.

This sort of tech might also work best when paired with either streaming apps as an API or middleware layer, or BluRay players where you could analyze both past and following frames to figure out what to do with the current frame, and to also do the processing ahead of time before the viewer sees it. E.g a streaming service has streamed 25% of a film when it starts playing it, then there's a ton of footage the processor could handle in the background and then just present the enhanced resulting frames. This would remove any realtime demands for it.
 
kasakka said:
Knowing TV companies, it's either disabled for game mode, or it's on for everything and causes higher input lag because lag is not really a concern for movies and TV.

This sort of tech might also work best when paired with either streaming apps as an API or middleware layer, or BluRay players where you could analyze both past and following frames to figure out what to do with the current frame, and to also do the processing ahead of time before the viewer sees it. E.g a streaming service has streamed 25% of a film when it starts playing it, then there's a ton of footage the processor could handle in the background and then just present the enhanced resulting frames. This would remove any realtime demands for it.
Click to expand...
This is my thougths as well as mentioned above, and the reason why I think that as a PC monitor, the difference to the QN900C might not be all that big unless the actual panel is changed or the OCB had real updates to support 240 hz if that is not fake.

For various reasons, I guess quite few people would actually considering either as a PC monitor so one of us might have to bite the bullet here and get one to test ourselves :)
 
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