ILLEGAL to sell regular lightbulbs after August 1st

SamirD said:
Thank you for the data point. I always wondered if the longevity was worth the price. Is there any real savings on the power bill to justify them?
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That I have no clue on. That's for the bigwigs to worry about.

I mean yeah they use less power. Even if they failed at the same rate, assuming the per lamp price isn't too far off, they technically save money.

Some of those led "luminaries" (the whole fixture setup + lamps) can be pretty pricey.

Especially some of the small mini hallway florescents. They've been replaced by led panels. I image those cost a decent amount to replace.

*Edit* fwiw they really only push the sustainable part.

*Edit* Next time I'm at work I'll go see if I can find the list price for some of them. There's a few air handlers that use eagle drive belts that cost like $2500. Amazing stuff lol.
 
hititnquitit said:
Yep, yep. I've got 4 fluorescent shop lights(4 footers) that are 10 or 11 years old in my workshop. I've had to replace one full unit because the ballast fried. Haven't had to replace any of the other bulbs yet.
I grabbed another 4, 4 foot, LEDs when I picked up the replacement for other spots in my shop (they were only a few bucks more). It'll be interesting to see how they compare to the fluorescents.
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There's a lot of led replacement tubes for shop and commercial lights. I've considered using them but unless they're actually going to last longer or save power, there's no point in spending more for what some good old mercury vapor has been doing, lol.
 
w1retap said:
That isn't my experience with paying for these things out of my own pocket, thinking I was getting a much longer lasting bulb, when that isn't the case. I can't even make it a year, even buying expensive GE and Philips LED bulbs. I replaced a basement light that runs 24/7 with an incandescent bulb again because the last one ran 8 years straight.
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Well I can't say your experience is wrong, just that mine has been the opposite. So long as I've used the proper bulbs (meaning ones rated to be enclosed spaces if they are enclosed, outdoor if outdoor, etc) they have almost never failed. I've had two failures since I've started using LED bulbs, which has been like 10 years. One was just recently, it was clearly a bad bulb, half the elements started failing after like 2 months. The other was a cheapie that failed after a few years. It has been a good run and the main appeal to me is just not having to replace bulbs. I actually bought some waaay back in the day when they weren't cheap and thus not necessarily a money saver just because I was sick of getting the ladder out to replace bulbs way up high in the great room.

They were great outdoors too (when purchased as outdoor bulbs) at the condo complex I lived at. We had all these little light fixtures along the sidewalks and they were on all night and thus burnt out continuously, and the maintenance guy never kept up with getting the replaced. Once we put in a bunch of LEDs there was no more issue.

EDIT: I would add that if what you've said is accurate, I wonder if you don't have a severe voltage sag on your power lines. Low voltage input can lead to LEDs (and computer power supplies and any other switching PSUs) running hot, but would lead to incandescent running longer though less efficient with less light.
 
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w1retap said:
Dimmable LEDs is where I can't get them to last more than a year. In my kitchen table fixture (5 bulbs) the original incandescent bulbs lasted for about 6 years.I put some Amazon Basics LED bulbs in there, and they burned out one by one over the course of 3 months. So I figured I'd buy more expensive GE Relax dimmable bulbs. I'm on month 6 with them, and so far 2 out of 5 have burned out.

Another thing is smart switches. I setup a Home Assistant server, and I went through 5 different smart switches before I found one brand that would finally work with LED bulbs without flickering to the point of almost having a seizure. I even added extra capacitance with the bulb sockets.

IMO, they're complete garbage compared to incandescent. They claim to save power, but the inverter in them runs so hot you can't even touch the base of the bulb if you remove them hot. I'll have to do a real world power draw test to see what they actually use, because it is nowhere near the several watts claimed. It has to be at least 20-30 watts in heat energy alone from the base.
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That is interesting...my biggest culprits for failure are those on dimmers as well. I never put the two together until just now. I don't know if it is the bulb being crumby or if it is the dimmer itself. I did put some non-dimable bulbs into a dimmable fixture this weekend because it is all I had. It will be an interesting test.

And another thing that irritates me about LEDs....they don't dim as well. I have a stock pile of incandescent can bulbs for my theatre room because they just dim down lower. If I'm eating pizza and watching a movie, I want barely some light so I don't spill. All the LEDs I've tried give too much. The incandescents are noticeably dimmer.
 
Usually non-dimmable LED bulbs on a dimmer will just cut out or flicker when dimmed.

But yea, even the dimmable LED bulbs suck. Once I get down to about 25% brightness, they just cut out.
 
Sycraft said:
Well I can't say your experience is wrong, just that mine has been the opposite. So long as I've used the proper bulbs (meaning ones rated to be enclosed spaces if they are enclosed, outdoor if outdoor, etc) they have almost never failed. I've had two failures since I've started using LED bulbs, which has been like 10 years. One was just recently, it was clearly a bad bulb, half the elements started failing after like 2 months. The other was a cheapie that failed after a few years. It has been a good run and the main appeal to me is just not having to replace bulbs. I actually bought some waaay back in the day when they weren't cheap and thus not necessarily a money saver just because I was sick of getting the ladder out to replace bulbs way up high in the great room.

They were great outdoors too (when purchased as outdoor bulbs) at the condo complex I lived at. We had all these little light fixtures along the sidewalks and they were on all night and thus burnt out continuously, and the maintenance guy never kept up with getting the replaced. Once we put in a bunch of LEDs there was no more issue.

EDIT: I would add that if what you've said is accurate, I wonder if you don't have a severe voltage sag on your power lines. Low voltage input can lead to LEDs (and computer power supplies and any other switching PSUs) running hot, but would lead to incandescent running longer though less efficient with less light.
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No, my power at my home is perfect. I monitor the power with my Eaton UPS equipment since it has built in line monitoring and notifications. I can also monitor my meter from the utility side, since I work for the company that provides power to my house..
 
SamirD said:
Thank you for the data point. I always wondered if the longevity was worth the price. Is there any real savings on the power bill to justify them?
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About three months ago, most of the fluorescents in our office were changed over to LEDs. The one by my door is currently flickering like a car blinker and has been all day.
 
SamirD said:
Why do all the idiots on youtube have to make some sort of face like 'look at the turd I just made' or some other idiocy? I just can't take any of these people seriously enough to even watch what they produce with these gimmicky still shots...:stop:
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It attracts more views... Why else?
 
New house came with crap LEDs. A few flickered soon after we moved in, and some even glowed at night. Just replaced with some feit brand.
 
w1retap said:
No, my power at my home is perfect. I monitor the power with my Eaton UPS equipment since it has built in line monitoring and notifications. I can also monitor my meter from the utility side, since I work for the company that provides power to my house..
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Fair enough, though I'd test any sockets you are having trouble in because I just find it hard to believe. Not just the LEDs failing early, but an incandescent lasting 8 years 24/7. Normal room light ones are rated to 1000 hours, long life appliance ones to 2000 hours. The life is limited by the tungsten sublimating off the filament caused by the high temperatures, so it will eventually fail.

24x365x8 is over 70,000 hours. You are claiming that you had a light last 35-70x longer than the rated life. I just find that extremely hard to believe, since there is physics that limits the lifetime, unless you undervolt them and run them with less visible light being given off.
 
Eulogy said:
Then you're missing out :D it's really well done, and actually does a "TL;DW" right at the top, too.
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Videos are such a big time suck that I pretty much avoid them anyways. Takes soooooo loooooonnnnnngggg to get to the info that in print can be read in like 30 seconds. I just don't have time for that--and the stupid faces just seals the deal. :ROFLMAO: I don't need a reminder that I needed to go to the bathroom an hour ago...
 
w1retap said:
I replaced a basement light that runs 24/7 with an incandescent bulb again because the last one ran 8 years straight.
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You made me just realize that some of the bulbs in my parents kitchen are the original from 1995. They're 130v bulbs which was a trick to make them last longer since voltage differences supposedly is what shortened the life on 120v bulbs. Not sure if there's any weight to that, but that's my favorite light in their kitchen and I use it all the time--just did the math--28yrs...dayyuummmm....
 
NightReaver said:
That I have no clue on. That's for the bigwigs to worry about.

I mean yeah they use less power. Even if they failed at the same rate, assuming the per lamp price isn't too far off, they technically save money.

Some of those led "luminaries" (the whole fixture setup + lamps) can be pretty pricey.

Especially some of the small mini hallway florescents. They've been replaced by led panels. I image those cost a decent amount to replace.

*Edit* fwiw they really only push the sustainable part.

*Edit* Next time I'm at work I'll go see if I can find the list price for some of them. There's a few air handlers that use eagle drive belts that cost like $2500. Amazing stuff lol.
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Makes sense. And the whole fixture replacement is actually why I'm asking because every time we call someone to replace 2 bulbs on our big florescent sign, they get these $$ in their eyes and want to talk up an LED replacement system like it's the bee's knees. I always say 'we'll consider that, but just need the bulbs replaced at this time'. And those bulbs last 5yrs+ running 24x7. I've seen other local LED replacement projects end up with flickering signs, etc after just a few months. I have no doubt these guys are using dirt cheap chinese crap and charging big money for it, hence my aversion.

The biggest one is the guys that want to come and replace all the outdoor lights under the canopy and claim that the 20-40k investment will recoup its cost over the next decade. I'm always wary when a company has enough profit and overhead to have sales people going around and pushing their product...

It would be great to know how much those are. And don't get me started on AC units--the endless upgrade cycle on those is almost as bad as browsers--and infinitely more expensive!
 
Issues I've had with CFL and even LED bulbs is that they don't last as long as they should because the On/Off cycles killing them. Rated hours are one thing, but they all have a cycle count limit as well.
 
SamirD said:
Makes sense. And the whole fixture replacement is actually why I'm asking because every time we call someone to replace 2 bulbs on our big florescent sign, they get these $$ in their eyes and want to talk up an LED replacement system like it's the bee's knees. I always say 'we'll consider that, but just need the bulbs replaced at this time'. And those bulbs last 5yrs+ running 24x7. I've seen other local LED replacement projects end up with flickering signs, etc after just a few months. I have no doubt these guys are using dirt cheap chinese crap and charging big money for it, hence my aversion.
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I mean a properly designed (as in has enough elements and enough cooling) LED system should last way longer than fluorescent. Now is what they are selling you well designed? Can't say. So far the T8 replacements they've put in around offices here have been working well, but they only started pretty recently (last 5 years maybe) so it isn't like we have real long-term tests. The hope is less replacements so less maintenance time wasted on it. Also the maintenance guys are excited about getting rid of the ballasts since those are more of a pain to replace.

SamirD said:
The biggest one is the guys that want to come and replace all the outdoor lights under the canopy and claim that the 20-40k investment will recoup its cost over the next decade. I'm always wary when a company has enough profit and overhead to have sales people going around and pushing their product...
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Ya I am always wary of companies that go door-to-door selling shit. In my experience the good companies don't need to do that.

bluestang said:
Issues I've had with CFL and even LED bulbs is that they don't last as long as they should because the On/Off cycles killing them. Rated hours are one thing, but they all have a cycle count limit as well.
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That is another area that LEDs should be great at, and in my experience are. Incandescent lights take extra stress during turn on/off due to the thermal expansion and contraction. LEDs can pulse on and off no issues.
 
SamirD said:
It does the opposite for me. It's like if they went 'full retard' that they would get even more views...but not from me.
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Ditto, turns me right off too, but it's what gets the views :(. I remember Linus (of ltt) mentioning that once.
 
That explains why I saw a huge cart full of those bulbs at the hardware store Sunday, forgot there was even a ban, should have picked some up as a "backup" just in case, oh well. :( However, almost all my bulbs are LED now anyway. I ended up getting mostly Wyze RGB ones awhile back (just to play around with), but if I select really close to what incandescent looks like in the color wheel / intensity, I don't even notice the difference honestly. Plus, I enjoy changing the colors in my gaming room or in my theatre room if watching a movie. Wonder if all these WiFi bulbs are worse for my brain vs. my energy bill. They all have warnings about "radiation" within 20cm or something... I'd have to look again... lol. (Joking, but only half, they do actually have warnings)
 
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Sycraft said:
Also the maintenance guys are excited about getting rid of the ballasts since those are more of a pain to replace.
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Funny thing is some of the early replacement projects put in "ballasted" LEDs. Like thanks for keeping the annoying bit...
 
NightReaver said:
Funny thing is some of the early replacement projects put in "ballasted" LEDs. Like thanks for keeping the annoying bit...
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No kidding. They still sell them too. And I mean I guess if you just want a drop-in replacement that's nice and all... but fuck ballasts, getting rid of them would be half the point.
 
Sycraft said:
No kidding. They still sell them too. And I mean I guess if you just want a drop-in replacement that's nice and all... but fuck ballasts, getting rid of them would be half the point.
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Yeah thankfully those aren't my buildings and they got smart by the time they rolled onto mine.
 
Sycraft said:
Fair enough, though I'd test any sockets you are having trouble in because I just find it hard to believe. Not just the LEDs failing early, but an incandescent lasting 8 years 24/7. Normal room light ones are rated to 1000 hours, long life appliance ones to 2000 hours. The life is limited by the tungsten sublimating off the filament caused by the high temperatures, so it will eventually fail.

24x365x8 is over 70,000 hours. You are claiming that you had a light last 35-70x longer than the rated life. I just find that extremely hard to believe, since there is physics that limits the lifetime, unless you undervolt them and run them with less visible light being given off.
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Ah yes, I just make all these things up. I have another one of those same bulbs that has been going since I bought my house 10 years ago. When I get home I'll get a picture of it for you.
 
PXL_20230801_003439939.jpg

Sunbeam, 100w, 130v. The magic ever lasting light bulb.
 
What will we use to safely test equipment in an unknown state now? ;-)

For those unaware, amp techs will often use a light bulb in series with the AC mains when powering on an amp whose state is unknown. The cold filament has a very low resistance so voltage is high however if there is a short or otherwise faulty part that could be damaged before a fuse blows the light bulb will glow brightly limiting the power and effectively potential catastrophic damage.
 
w1retap said:
Usually non-dimmable LED bulbs on a dimmer will just cut out or flicker when dimmed.

But yea, even the dimmable LED bulbs suck. Once I get down to about 25% brightness, they just cut out.
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Some dimmers have hidden trim adjustments; take the switch cover off and see... You're not getting the light to dim any lower, but at least you can make it so the lowest setting doesn't make the bulbs turn off or flicker, and if you turn it on at the lowest setting, the bulbs will turn on (although sometimes with a flash of bright light, if the bulbs suck). They do make 'led capable' dimmers now, which do a bit better with leds than older dimmers built when incandescents were all there was. I've had to replace a couple dimmers with newer ones when the output was noticably bad, but many seem to be fine... might have to do with being on the same leg as an electric fence charger though.
 
applegrcoug said:
My big complaint is these new bulbs cost 3x or more than an old bulb. Sure, they supposedly last forever, but they dont. I changed like for led bulbs today.

Today<forever.

I have some can lights and the LEDs have definitely lasted less than the old school bulbs...pretty telling when I replaced some old school cans with LEDs and they are dead before the rest of the old cans.
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Are these open or covered can lights? One really irritating thing about LEDs is you have to read the fine print when buying them if you're using them in an enclosed fixture. A lot of them have "not suitable for totally enclosed fixtures" printed on the box or the bulb somewhere. The ones that are suitable for use in totally enclosed fixtures will sometimes advertise it but sometimes it's in tiny print on the bulb or somewhere on the box. If they're not suitable it's always in tiny print. Sometimes the name brand bulbs are not suitable and the cheap ones are. Like GE "Reveal" bulbs are not suitable for totally enclosed fixtures. At any rate the "not suitable for use in totally enclosed fixtures" models will overheat and burn out sooner than an old school incandescent if you put them in an enclosed fixture. I really haven't had any trouble with LEDs failing in open fixtures, but I had lots of them burn out in enclosed fixtures before I figured out that I had to check the fine print. So pick up a pair of 3x cheaters (those "reading glasses" they sell on racks at the grocery store, drug store, big box store, etc.) and check the fine print.

hititnquitit said:
Yep, yep. I've got 4 fluorescent shop lights(4 footers) that are 10 or 11 years old in my workshop. I've had to replace one full unit because the ballast fried. Haven't had to replace any of the other bulbs yet.
I grabbed another 4, 4 foot, LEDs when I picked up the replacement for other spots in my shop (they were only a few bucks more). It'll be interesting to see how they compare to the fluorescents.
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For next time... they sell ballast bypass LED bulbs. Just rip out the ballast and feed the bulb 120V AC.

w1retap said:
Ah yes, I just make all these things up. I have another one of those same bulbs that has been going since I bought my house 10 years ago. When I get home I'll get a picture of it for you.
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Incandescent bulbs can last a lot, lot longer if you never turn them off. The filament suffers from thermal stress when you power cycle the bulb. It goes from white hot to ambient temp back to white hot again over and over if you turn it on and off all the time.

Personally I like LEDs and it's not just because of the power and $ savings (after I figured out the bit about the fine print and totally enclosed fixtures). The other things I like about them are the wide range of color temperatures available and the ability to massively upgrade light output in existing fixtures. The right color temperature really does make a difference in the look and feel of a room. I'm a big fan of "daylight" 5000k bulbs in closets since they make it a lot easier to tell the difference between black, charcoal and navy blue. I like the relaxed soft white (2700k) in places like bedrooms, living rooms and dining rooms. 5000k seems a bit harsh to me, so I like 3500k "bright white" in my kitchen. I have an 8000 lumen light in my garage that pulls 60W. It screws into a regular E26 socket. A 100W incandescent puts out about 1500 lumens. So you can massively upgrade brightness without redoing any fixtures or wiring. Also it's a 5000k bulb and those are really great in garages and basements where you don't care what it looks like and just want to be able to see well. When I moved in I'm pretty sure there were 3 60W incandescent bulbs in the garage, so 2400 lumens. Now I've got the 8000 lumen in the ceiling socket and a 4000 lumen in each wall socket, so 16000 lumens for 120W or so rather than 2400 for 180. So it's 6 and 2/3 times as bright.
 
Comixbooks said:
If they wanted to make people cranky this is the way to do it. Every box of led bulbs I bought had equal results even tried Edison led bulbs no go.
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They always end up flickering and going out on me... then I go to the multi pack box to get another and see "10 year"...
 
hititnquitit said:
We switched the house to LEDs several years ago. I think I've had to replace one of them since. Regular bulbs on the other hand I had to replace constantly. Altho, I've got a giant florescent bulb (no idea what size or wattage it is)on the back of the house that comes on automatically. It's at least 17 years old. Hopefully there will be replacements for it when it finally kicks the bucket.
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This has been my experience as well.

When I bought this house in 2016, on move in day some of the bulbs in the kitchen were flickering and I thought I had some sort of electrical problem. I pulled one of the lights to take a look and found that I needed a welding glove to handle it even after several minutes of it being off. The bulb was the sketchiest crap I've ever seen. It was one of those florescent coil bulbs glued into an interior flood light style housing with some ghetto adapter for power that was scorched black. My whole house was filled with those fire hazards. So I ponied up about $450 to replace every bulb in the house with LED's on day one. I don't know how many there are in total but it's a pretty good sized house with a lot of rooms and built in lighting.

8 years later I've replaced one or two of those bulbs and that's it.
 
w1retap said:
Sunbeam, 100w, 130v. The magic ever lasting light bulb.
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Ahh, so undervolted. Appliance type bulbs are often set up to be 130v so they run undervolted, which increases lifetime. Now that's nice and all, though I am still surprised by that lifetime, but it means they use more power for less light. So it costs you more in power, and gives off more heat.

Do note that you are spending most of your energy on heat, not light. I can't find the spec sheet for your light in particular, but a similar long-life "rough service" 130v bulb when operated at 120v gives about 720-800 lumens of output so about 8 lm/W efficiency. So about 1 watt of the 88 watts (only uses 88 watts due to undervolting) becomes light. Philips will sell you an Ultra Efficient A19 that puts out about the same amount of light, 810 lumens, but uses 4.5 watts to do it so 180 lm/W. Little over 25% efficient, which sounds low but compared to incandescent is pretty great. Means they don't get very hot since they only output like 3.3 watts of heat.

Also not sure what is up with your LED being 188 degrees. I just checked the GE Reveal bulbs that we have (only have a couple) with my FLIR and the hot point was 116 degrees at the base (73 degrees ambient). Pretty normal given that an oldschool linear wall wart at idle on some Logitech speakers measured 106 at idle in the same room.

At any rate, you do you, you can hate on LEDs as being crap and only lasting a short time or try to figure out why your experience is so different from most people. Whichever makes you happy.
 
I think out of the ~20-25 LED bulbs I've purchased over the years I've had only maybe 4 die max, and only one died what I would consider "early", and that's because it was a no-name brand that I bought in the early days of LEDs. All other bulbs have been going fine, some I think have hit the 5-7 year range. I even use them in locations contrary to some LED labeling (enclosed fixtures in locations with humidity, like porch and bathroom)

I tend to always buy dimmable versions because those seem to just be more resilient / less likely to flicker / etc. Even inexpensive multipacks like Walmart's Great Value brand (dimmable) seem to be fine quality to me. I just avoid dollar store or Amazon no-names, unless I need a special one-off kind of bulb (I got a neat "half mirror" bulb - one that has half of the bulb coated in a mirror type coating so in a down-firing open fixture like at my dining room table, the light reflects upward into the rest of the bulb and fixture and spreads out evenly- without shining directly into the eyes of anyone sitting right under it)

My choices would be LED > low watt incandescent > florescent. Florescent lights have their place but in general I find all of them awful.
 
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Sycraft said:
I mean a properly designed (as in has enough elements and enough cooling) LED system should last way longer than fluorescent. Now is what they are selling you well designed? Can't say. So far the T8 replacements they've put in around offices here have been working well, but they only started pretty recently (last 5 years maybe) so it isn't like we have real long-term tests. The hope is less replacements so less maintenance time wasted on it. Also the maintenance guys are excited about getting rid of the ballasts since those are more of a pain to replace.


That is another area that LEDs should be great at, and in my experience are. Incandescent lights take extra stress during turn on/off due to the thermal expansion and contraction. LEDs can pulse on and off no issues.
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Being properly designed would make a lot of things last and that's not going to help sustain profit margins. I've had failures of all types, but only incandescent bulbs have been in some fixtures so long that I've forgotten when they went in.
 
What i fear now is the race to the bottom on led bulb quality and cost. At some point we could be looking back at "remember when incandescent bulbs lasted longer and were cheaper?"

I know the usage over time cost is lower, but theres a possibility of it shifting away from that as cheaper bulbs use crappier power supplies in them and less heatsink so heat reduces life.
 
RE: lifetime...

Longest living bulb is in fact an incandescent lamp! Granted, it's an antique carbon filament but you can see it live here:

It's the infamous Centennial Light and lives in a firehouse.

https://www.centennialbulb.org/cam.htm

I don't mind LED if they are of good quality and have CRI of at least 85. Low CRI bulbs are horrible and make fleshtones and food look downright alien. Especially the old cool white and (the worst) light white fluorescent bulbs that were used in warehouses in the 60s.

The cheapest LED bulbs "blow out" quickly because their drivers have absolutely inadequate heat dissipation and they cannot tolerate spikes on the incoming power line.
 
Well ebay hasn't removed the listings on their site so you can still stock up. Walmart removed them for sale back in like April I noticed because I just wanted to buy some more there.
They were clearance out and sold out like in two days. Really is a shame that politics had to get involved in this decision but it could be reversed again.
 
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The only incandescent bulbs that I still use are in both of my fridges. Everything else in my house is LED and only 1 LED fixture failed, which was replaced under warranty and two LED bulbs, which oddly enough were expensive ones. The cheap ones from Walmart or the Ecosmart from HD have never failed me yet.

I also have 14 Philips LED T8 fluorescent replacement in the garage. I installed those when they came out, not one has failed yet.
 
I have LED's throughout my entire house, and I've replaced more LED bulbs in the 6 years in my current house than the past 20 years of incandescent bulbs in my previous houses. Make of bulbs doesn't seem to matter either.
 
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