Court Rules Samsung Doesn't Have to Keep Patching Phones

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rgMekanic

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In a bit of unfortunate news, ZDNet is reporting that a court in the Netherlands has rules that Samsung does not have to keep updating its smartphones. In 2016 The Dutch Consumers' Association, or Consumentenbond, sued samsung stating that they were obligated to provide security updates to smartphones at least 2 years after purchase, or 4 years after manufacture. Unfortunately Wednesday, The Hague administrative court ruled the case was inadmissible, as the Consumentenbond was trying to influence Samsung's future activities.

I understand the court's reasoning, but it is still no good for consumers.

The Consumentenbond also tried to get the court to force Samsung to give customers better information about its security practices. Again, it failed, but the organization's director, Bart Combée, noted that Samsung has recently started doing that anyway.
 
It’s phone manufacturers doing crap like this that makes me buy iPhones and iPads. Their phones may be better than the iPhones hardware wise but and they may not pull as many shannagans as Apple but at least Apple supports the damned hardware for 4+ years.
 
IMO the commercial landscape of the World changed big time once being able to sell crappy software with no need to refund, came into being
 
To be honest, I don't want Samsung to update my phone. I want to update my phone. Just give me the ability to put my own custom rom onto my phone, cause like routers the phone manufacturers tend to abandon their software when it doesn't make any profitable sense to update it. Of course I don't use a Samsung phone cause HAHAHA, but I do have a Asus Zenphone 2 that easily runs LineageOS. EASILY! I'd rather have some guys working in their moms garage updating my phone than a hardware manufacturer.
 
DukenukemX said:
To be honest, I don't want Samsung to update my phone. I want to update my phone. Just give me the ability to put my own custom rom onto my phone
Click to expand...
Exynos s9 is all you need, it supports treble so any aosp rom should boot.
 
_l_ said:
IMO the commercial landscape of the World changed big time once being able to sell crappy software with no need to refund, came into being
Click to expand...

Even worse, was the bluff the software companies got in early on that they should be immune from normal consumer protection laws because "It was on a Computer". IMO, this is part of the reason why this ruling came out the way it did. Imagine if a car company could get away with only 2 years support, including recall level support and be immune from lawsuits over death and damage claims due to design or implementation defects.
 
I don't know why people still bother Samsung phones, I'm thoroughly happy with my Pixel 2. It's fast, clean, premium and it takes great pictures. Gone are the good ol' days of having to root with the possibility of bricking your phone.
 
Good. This would have limited options and raised prices, it would not have suddenly made cheap low end phones have 4 years of support. There are a number of mfgs and models that provide these levels of updates and support, if you want that, BUY THEM. Put your money where your mouth is and stop supporting phones and policies you don't like.
 
Lakados said:
It’s phone manufacturers doing crap like this that makes me buy iPhones and iPads. Their phones may be better than the iPhones hardware wise but and they may not pull as many shannagans as Apple but at least Apple supports the damned hardware for 4+ years.
Click to expand...
Yeah all the while vigorously fighting the right to repair, as well as suing small repair shops.
 
Mchart said:
Let the free market decide.

No one is forcing anyone to buy a crap Samsung phone.
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Part of me agrees, another is like..: No. Bullshit. Its high time for intervention. Right to repair laws, several standard size/shape replaceable batteries ... but no longer this insanity of glued unrepairable shit... open hardware to allow software changes and shit like this should probably be mandated. The cellphone market is just geared towards profit in that first sale (has many things of course, its just cellphones take a lot of resources, and we should really extend thier lives) and the free market is moving to make more of those, and to protect that first sale only market. I guess a company could offer a repairable phone... Maybe one should, with lifetime warranty or some shit, see how it can br made profitable, i don't know.
 
Mchart said:
Let the free market decide.

No one is forcing anyone to buy a crap Samsung phone.
Click to expand...
That sometimes doesn't work. I'd like to have a sliding QWERTY keyboard on my phone and I'm sure lots of people do as well, and yet nobody makes them, but like most people I got a regular smart phone and I'm just dealing with it. How many people you think are OK with removing the headphone jack or the SDCard slot? The phone industry tends to work with each other to push for standards that we as a consumer don't want, one of which is to prevent consumers from changing the software on their devices. Cause if you could upgrade the software on your phone then hardware manufacturers have less of a reason for you to upgrade to a newer device. The Asus Zenfone 2 I have only comes with Android 5.0 cause that's as far as Asus will go to update the device, but I can install LineageOS 14.1 which is Android 7.1 for free. LineageOS 15 is going to also be put on the Asus phones that gives you Orea 8.0.

Smart phones aren't as free market as you think, when a lot of influence comes from the carriers. Carriers also benefit if you upgrade your phone often.
 
So you want government to dictate how a phone should be built?

That’s idiotic, and I shouldn’t need to explain why.
 
Except for when they don't...

Apple has shown multiple cases recently of not supporting their products at all. Even for paid repair services.

Lakados said:
It’s phone manufacturers doing crap like this that makes me buy iPhones and iPads. Their phones may be better than the iPhones hardware wise but and they may not pull as many shannagans as Apple but at least Apple supports the damned hardware for 4+ years.
Click to expand...
 
Would be nice if they could all get together and at least come up with a plan to fully unlock a phone after updates are no longer being worked on. Breathe some life into hardware that is just being thrown in a dump.

Much waste.
 
They should at least allow people to root and have an unlocked boot-loader so people can install a custom ROM after a set amount of time! Really no reason to ditch a phone if the hardware works and batteries can be swapped.
*cough, Samsung Galaxy J3 Prime......
 
Mchart said:
So you want government to dictate how a phone should be built?

That’s idiotic, and I shouldn’t need to explain why.
Click to expand...
True it can or could be idiotic, but so it is what the 'market ' is doing.
 
Uvaman2 said:
Part of me agrees, another is like..: No. Bullshit. Its high time for intervention. Right to repair laws, several standard size/shape replaceable batteries ... but no longer this insanity of glued unrepairable shit... open hardware to allow software changes and shit like this should probably be mandated. The cellphone market is just geared towards profit in that first sale (has many things of course, its just cellphones take a lot of resources, and we should really extend thier lives) and the free market is moving to make more of those, and to protect that first sale only market. I guess a company could offer a repairable phone... Maybe one should, with lifetime warranty or some shit, see how it can br made profitable, i don't know.
Click to expand...

You have the right to repair, just don't expect the MFG to hold up the warranty once you tear into it. Most people who do tear into these devices are nothing like the people you find on this forum and most have no idea what they are doing. Having to cover those screw ups and/or paying for good techs to be able to discover those can cost a lot of money. And like anything else, you have people who enjoy abusing those services. As for glued parts, when people drool over the next new small slim phone, you try and make things as small and light as possible, like it or not, glue works and does just that, adding fasteners adds weight and size, along with production costs. Many phones you can still swap out batteries in. Open HW does not need to be mandated when we have IP laws on the books, if you want open HW call for removal of IP and patents, DON'T call for even more conflicting laws.

DukenukemX said:
That sometimes doesn't work. I'd like to have a sliding QWERTY keyboard on my phone and I'm sure lots of people do as well, and yet nobody makes them, but like most people I got a regular smart phone and I'm just dealing with it. How many people you think are OK with removing the headphone jack or the SDCard slot? The phone industry tends to work with each other to push for standards that we as a consumer don't want, one of which is to prevent consumers from changing the software on their devices. Cause if you could upgrade the software on your phone then hardware manufacturers have less of a reason for you to upgrade to a newer device. The Asus Zenfone 2 I have only comes with Android 5.0 cause that's as far as Asus will go to update the device, but I can install LineageOS 14.1 which is Android 7.1 for free. LineageOS 15 is going to also be put on the Asus phones that gives you Orea 8.0.

Smart phones aren't as free market as you think, when a lot of influence comes from the carriers. Carriers also benefit if you upgrade your phone often.
Click to expand...

People who want a sliding KB are actually very small, and is why they dropped off, because people FLOCKED to full touch screens by the millions. If people wanted them, and BOUGHT them, they would make them, I see lots of people cry about some feature or another, but when a product comes out with that feature....They don't buy it, only a small fraction asking for it actually follow through. Most people are fine with removing of the headphone jack and SD slots, most people had no idea their phone had a SD slot anyway, and everyone today uses BT headphones, because they don't care for real sound quality. Myself, I am not quite an audiophile, but I am close, so I HATED its removal, but I understand I am a very small minority and there are a number of phones that offer 3.5mm jacks and even focus on sound with very nice built in amps. A number of phones also have SD slots still, the question is why are you not buying these phones if you really want those features?
 
Lakados said:
It’s phone manufacturers doing crap like this that makes me buy iPhones and iPads. Their phones may be better than the iPhones hardware wise but and they may not pull as many shannagans as Apple but at least Apple supports the damned hardware for 4+ years.
Click to expand...

If by "support" you mean update to run slow AF then I agree
 
BlueFireIce said:
People who want a sliding KB are actually very small, and is why they dropped off, because people FLOCKED to full touch screens by the millions. If people wanted them, and BOUGHT them, they would make them, I see lots of people cry about some feature or another, but when a product comes out with that feature....They don't buy it, only a small fraction asking for it actually follow through. Most people are fine with removing of the headphone jack and SD slots, most people had no idea their phone had a SD slot anyway, and everyone today uses BT headphones, because they don't care for real sound quality. Myself, I am not quite an audiophile, but I am close, so I HATED its removal, but I understand I am a very small minority and there are a number of phones that offer 3.5mm jacks and even focus on sound with very nice built in amps. A number of phones also have SD slots still, the question is why are you not buying these phones if you really want those features?
Click to expand...
Things like the SDcard slot and the headphone jack are things you rarely use but must have when you need it. A 16GB phone won't cause you problems until you fill it up and then you need an SD card slot. You won't need that headphone jack, until the car you drive has only an AUX input, or the bluetooth headphones run out of power. You can even apply this to CPU sockets on motherboards where most people don't put more than 1 CPU on a motherboard in its entire use.

But it's obvious that these things are done to save on manufacturing cost, plus with the added benefit to charge you far more for a feature you would otherwise get for free or cheap. They say it's to save on space to make the device thinner, but who complains their phone is too thick? My problem is the phone is getting too big, and that's likely to compensate for the lack of a physical keyboard. If my phone gets any bigger, it'll be a tablet.

Locking a bootloader or any other method to prevent a custom rom from being installed actually costs money, and I doubt it's for security reasons. But what can you do when the entire industry is agreeing to remove these features? It's almost like the phone manufacturers are collaborating with each other for their own benefits. Cause of course that never happens right? Look how much it cost this guy to upgrade his iPhone to 128GB for far less than buying it with the memory. Imagine if he had a SDcard slot?

 
rgMekanic said:
In a bit of unfortunate news, ZDNet is reporting that a court in the Netherlands has rules that Samsung does not have to keep updating its smartphones. In 2016 The Dutch Consumers' Association, or Consumentenbond, sued samsung stating that they were obligated to provide security updates to smartphones at least 2 years after purchase, or 4 years after manufacture. Unfortunately Wednesday, The Hague administrative court ruled the case was inadmissible, as the Consumentenbond was trying to influence Samsung's future activities.

I understand the court's reasoning, but it is still no good for consumers.

The Consumentenbond also tried to get the court to force Samsung to give customers better information about its security practices. Again, it failed, but the organization's director, Bart Combée, noted that Samsung has recently started doing that anyway.
Click to expand...


If Samsung had half an ounce of common sense they would update devices as long as there were relevant.. ie a few years.. it just makes them look GOOD.
 
YeuEmMaiMai said:
If Samsung had half an ounce of common sense they would update devices as long as there were relevant.. ie a few years.. it just makes them look GOOD.
Click to expand...

Especially considering the expected lifespan of a phone is 5 years...
 
rgMekanic said:
In a bit of unfortunate news, ZDNet is reporting that a court in the Netherlands has rules that Samsung does not have to keep updating its smartphones. In 2016 The Dutch Consumers' Association, or Consumentenbond, sued samsung stating that they were obligated to provide security updates to smartphones at least 2 years after purchase, or 4 years after manufacture. Unfortunately Wednesday, The Hague administrative court ruled the case was inadmissible, as the Consumentenbond was trying to influence Samsung's future activities.

I understand the court's reasoning, but it is still no good for consumers.

The Consumentenbond also tried to get the court to force Samsung to give customers better information about its security practices. Again, it failed, but the organization's director, Bart Combée, noted that Samsung has recently started doing that anyway.
Click to expand...

In a big way Samsung lost they now are pinned down where they can not show they are dedicated to the market. All we need in the Netherlands is other companies that sell phones follow suit and then lawmakers can make laws requiring any phone on the Dutch market to have 5 years of upgrades.
Mchart said:
So you want government to dictate how a phone should be built?
That’s idiotic, and I shouldn’t need to explain why.
Click to expand...

Well in the Netherlands we rely on the government to protect the consumers.
 
DukenukemX said:
Things like the SDcard slot and the headphone jack are things you rarely use but must have when you need it. A 16GB phone won't cause you problems until you fill it up and then you need an SD card slot. You won't need that headphone jack, until the car you drive has only an AUX input, or the bluetooth headphones run out of power. You can even apply this to CPU sockets on motherboards where most people don't put more than 1 CPU on a motherboard in its entire use.

But it's obvious that these things are done to save on manufacturing cost, plus with the added benefit to charge you far more for a feature you would otherwise get for free or cheap. They say it's to save on space to make the device thinner, but who complains their phone is too thick? My problem is the phone is getting too big, and that's likely to compensate for the lack of a physical keyboard. If my phone gets any bigger, it'll be a tablet.

Locking a bootloader or any other method to prevent a custom rom from being installed actually costs money, and I doubt it's for security reasons. But what can you do when the entire industry is agreeing to remove these features? It's almost like the phone manufacturers are collaborating with each other for their own benefits. Cause of course that never happens right? Look how much it cost this guy to upgrade his iPhone to 128GB for far less than buying it with the memory. Imagine if he had a SDcard slot?

Click to expand...


I only use wired headphones, so I use 3.5mm jacks all the time, if I buy a phone without one however, that is my choice. There are phones, (many) with 3.5mm jacks, SD slots and removable batteries, the options are there, and yet people still flock to the newest flag ship, telling the market what it should make more of. Examples of the likes of the V20, large removable battery, great camera, SD slot, and not only a 3.5mm jack, but a nice dedicated DAC for audio. Yet the s8, sold more than 8 times the volume. And if you are buying big phones, that you don't like, that seems like a personal issue, as there are standard phone sizes and even compact versions available, again showing that you complain about something, yet buy something else. As for the guy upgrading his iPhone's storage, yes, in China, where companies are allowed to manufacture and sell chips without IP/patent laws to stop them, so those chips are SUPER cheap there, when a company has a government enforced monopoly on a chip/tech, prices are going to be higher, because to compete means having to develop new tech that does not infringe on others IP, or finding someone willing to sell you IP or license that IP to you, that can be out right impossible or prohibitively expensive. Those chips can not be (legally) sold in the US, and even buying a USED iPhone memory chip is going to run you $100+, making it cheaper to just buy the larger storage phone.

So what you are asking for is more conflicting laws, because you don't understand the mess IP makes here in the states in relation to your video done in China.
 
Lakados said:
It’s phone manufacturers doing crap like this that makes me buy iPhones and iPads. Their phones may be better than the iPhones hardware wise but and they may not pull as many shenanigans as Apple but at least Apple supports the damned hardware for 4+ years.
Click to expand...
Same here, I've had two iPhones and have been happy ever since going to the iPhone. I just had iOS 11.4 delivered to my device a couple of days ago, it's so nice to know that the money I paid for the device actually went to developing software updates instead of into the already overstuffed pockets of the C-level people at the top.

DukenukemX said:
Just give me the ability to put my own custom rom onto my phone
Click to expand...
That won't happen as long as the lawyers are involved, what with patents and whatnot. Gots to protect that intellectual property man!

Wshmaster0 said:
I don't know why people still bother Samsung phones
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Because in the end Samsung makes the best damn devices the world has ever seen. Their screens and cameras are matched by no one.

Mchart said:
No one is forcing anyone to buy a crap Samsung phone.
Click to expand...
Except that Samsung is pretty much killing everyone else off. Yeah, there is LG and HTC and a few smaller end competitors but when it comes to the high end there's really no one else but Samsung; they've cornered the high end market.

YeuEmMaiMai said:
If Samsung had half an ounce of common sense they would update devices as long as there were relevant.. ie a few years.. it just makes them look GOOD.
Click to expand...
They'd never do that. You see they want you to be forever on the device upgrade treadmill, it practically prints them money by the semi-truck full. At least Apples gives a shit about their users, Samsung tells you go to f**k yourself after you give them your money.
 
I feel like regular security updates are key, and device manufactured should be bound to deliver security updates every couple of weeks for at the very least two years after the last new sale.

At the very least they should unlock the bootloader when they stop offering updates, so the open source community can take over.

Personally I only buy devices that already have LibeageOS support, or I feel are reasonably likely to get it.
 
Lakados said:
It’s phone manufacturers doing crap like this that makes me buy iPhones and iPads. Their phones may be better than the iPhones hardware wise but and they may not pull as many shannagans as Apple but at least Apple supports the damned hardware for 4+ years.
Click to expand...

I think you have it backwards. IPhones by FAR have the best hardware and the fastest chips. Nothing out there on the market can touch Apples A series chips.

The problem is Apples software and their waled garden approach, and trying to control the user experience, which is why I keep buying Android. You just have to do your research do you get phones with unlocked bootloader's, so if you are unhappy with stock ROM update frequency, you can go with LineageOS.
 
Zarathustra[H] said:
I think you have it backwards. IPhones by FAR have the best hardware and the fastest chips. Nothing out there on the market can touch Apples A series chips.

The problem is Apples software and their waled garden approach, and trying to control the user experience, which is why I keep buying Android. You just have to do your research do you get phones with unlocked bootloader's, so if you are unhappy with stock ROM update frequency, you can go with LineageOS.
Click to expand...
I was talking about their finger print readers, cameras, speakers and mic’s. My biggest complaint with iPhones since day 1 has been their garbage speaker phone and array mic makes the feature practically useless. But yeah those A series chips are awesome.

And yes their are some really great Android phones, I am letting management get the Pixel 2’s this refresh cycle as a test, but at this point I have well over 400 iOS devices and Apple still is supporting 5 year old devices at this point. I mean most app developers aren’t so those ones are just there for the specific jobs they are used for (mostly special needs) but I can still get parts and the battery’s hold charges.
 
Lakados said:
I was talking about their finger print readers, cameras, speakers and mic’s. My biggest complaint with iPhones since day 1 has been their garbage speaker phone and array mic makes the feature practically useless. But yeah those A series chips are awesome.

And yes their are some really great Android phones, I am letting management get the Pixel 2’s this refresh cycle as a test, but at this point I have well over 400 iOS devices and Apple still is supporting 5 year old devices at this point. I mean most app developers aren’t so those ones are just there for the specific jobs they are used for (mostly special needs) but I can still get parts and the battery’s hold charges.
Click to expand...
Speakerphone since the 7 has been fine as it went stereo and the speaker itself was also upgraded.
 
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