Dual Wield Double Barrel 1911 Pistols

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lcpiper said:
These handguns definitely, by design, shoot automatically more then one shot without manual reloading by a single function of the trigger.
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Well, it does have two triggers.

Still lame, as the Glock 18 is an excellent design, burst fire is a very useful technology to fire two rounds virtually simultaneously, and its inexpensive as hell. I think the Glock 18s sell to the gubment for $500-600.
 
Ducman69 said:
Well, it does have two triggers.

Still lame, as the Glock 18 is an excellent design, burst fire is a very useful technology to fire two rounds virtually simultaneously, and its inexpensive as hell. I think the Glock 18s sell to the gubment for $500-600.
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OK, so how many transferable Glock 18's are out there in the U.S.? If you find one I can guarantee it won't be 5-600 dollars.
 
wizzi01 said:
OK, so how many transferable Glock 18's are out there in the U.S.? If you find one I can guarantee it won't be 5-600 dollars.
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No, no, I mean how much it costs the government, not us. Meaning that its not expensive to manufacture, so if it weren't for stupid laws, we could all have sidearms that could fire semi or dual-burst relatively inexpensively.

I don't need fully automatic, especially on a pistol as you'd blow your load in half a second, but a second round firing before recoil can flip the gun up would be awesome on a little compensated pistol, so you get a perfect double-tap every time with one trigger pull.

Same thing with suppressors, which IMO should damn near be a requirement, because someone shouldn't have to risk going deaf just to defend themselves, and it would make practicing at the range more comfortable for everyone. Ideally, anyone that has already gone through all the background checks for a CHL in the first place should be preapproved IMO, using that document to demonstrate you've already gone through all the checks to ensure you're not a criminal... but instead they make it as difficult, time consuming, and convoluted as possible. A gun without a suppressor makes as much sense as running a motorcycle or Vette without a muffler... unnecessarily loud.
 
Do a 460 Rowland conversion on these and we're talking some serious/painful recoil. :D
 
Oh, you KNOW John Woo and Chow Yun Fat are working on a movie right now featuring a pair of these. :D
 
Geck0 said:
FFS, the guy was standing no more than 20 paces from the target and landed them all in a 24 x 18" placard. Handguns aren't accurate by definition but please.

Someone competent with a 911 colt would probably land more killing shots in the same time with less bullets. That's less bullets leaving one trailer and entering another, potentially ending the life of the neighbors 19yr old unemployed son....
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I'm fairly certain Jerry Miculek is plenty competent with firearms :rolleyes:
 
This is one of those things were you know it doesn't make any practical or financial sense but you want one anyway.
 
Blown 89 said:
I'm fairly certain Jerry Miculek is plenty competent with firearms :rolleyes:
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He is, but he had a hard time with his grouping, proving that the gun is BS.

If we're talking about ftlbs on target in a set amount of time, see how much better he does with a fifty cal DEagle for example:
https://youtu.be/ULysvxSYfoU?t=1m28s

5 rounds on target in 0.8 seconds all center mass hits (no complete misses like with the double-1911), and that's 1500ftlbs x 5 rounds = 7500ftlbs of energy on target in under a second.

The 1911 say he used some hot 500ftlbs rounds, thats 1000ftlbs per trigger pull so still less than a .50AE, and the way lower velocity of the .45ACP means that its going to have far more droop at range.

So old trusty DEagle .50AE (I have one in chrome woo woo) is still > double-1911. Plus its way easier to put your favorite sight on the DEagle, and if going iron its much longer sight radius means you should be more accurate.
 
Ducman69 said:
No, no, I mean how much it costs the government, not us. Meaning that its not expensive to manufacture, so if it weren't for stupid laws, we could all have sidearms that could fire semi or dual-burst relatively inexpensively.

I don't need fully automatic, especially on a pistol as you'd blow your load in half a second, but a second round firing before recoil can flip the gun up would be awesome on a little compensated pistol, so you get a perfect double-tap every time with one trigger pull.

Same thing with suppressors, which IMO should damn near be a requirement, because someone shouldn't have to risk going deaf just to defend themselves, and it would make practicing at the range more comfortable for everyone. Ideally, anyone that has already gone through all the background checks for a CHL in the first place should be preapproved IMO, using that document to demonstrate you've already gone through all the checks to ensure you're not a criminal... but instead they make it as difficult, time consuming, and convoluted as possible. A gun without a suppressor makes as much sense as running a motorcycle or Vette without a muffler... unnecessarily loud.
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For a CH.... what?

Or you could just move to a state where you don't need anything but to be an adult to buy and carry a gun, open or concealed, no license required, no registration, just put the damn thing on your hip and go about your day. It's been almost two years now and Arizona hasn't erupted into the OK Coral yet.

And I am pretty sure you are not going to go deaf shooting your handgun, inside or outside. Man when I was in the Army we never used hearing protection and I shot M16s and M60 machineguns full auto every few months. Thousands of rounds fired in just a few hours. Did it hurt my hearing, of course, 30 years later am I deaf yet? Nope, not by a long shot.

And the reason it's the way it is is at least somewhat because what you do for the Silencer is what the Feds require, and maybe on top of it, what your State wants. But when it comes to your guns themselves it's all up to your State, the Feds make no requirements other then the quick background check at purchase.
 
Ducman69 said:
He is, but he had a hard time with his grouping, proving that the gun is BS.

If we're talking about ftlbs on target in a set amount of time, see how much better he does with a fifty cal DEagle for example:
https://youtu.be/ULysvxSYfoU?t=1m28s

5 rounds on target in 0.8 seconds all center mass hits (no complete misses like with the double-1911), and that's 1500ftlbs x 5 rounds = 7500ftlbs of energy on target in under a second.

The 1911 say he used some hot 500ftlbs rounds, thats 1000ftlbs per trigger pull so still less than a .50AE, and the way lower velocity of the .45ACP means that its going to have far more droop at range.

So old trusty DEagle .50AE (I have one in chrome woo woo) is still > double-1911. Plus its way easier to put your favorite sight on the DEagle, and if going iron its much longer sight radius means you should be more accurate.
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Ducman69, although I found issue with your post about suppressors I wanted to say, overall I agree that they don't need to be so difficult to own and they are very useful at the range.

I also agree that if Jerry has trouble shooting perfect with a weapon then the weapon likely has problems cause that man can shoot.

I speak for the DEagle, too big for my hands, I can hold them but not comfortably so I don't own one. I'd go for a good Coonan or an Alaskan in 454 Cassul :D
 
lcpiper said:
THOUSANDS OF ROUNDS FIRED IN JUST A FEW HOURS. DID IT HURT MY HEARING, OF COURSE, 30 YEARS LATER AM I DEAF YET? NOPE, NOT BY A LONG SHOT.
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Fixed.
lcpiper said:
And the reason it's the way it is is at least somewhat because what you do for the Silencer
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*snip* And that's part of the problem, is that in popular culture we call them silencers, and freakin hollywood created the pew-pew whisper sounds, when that's nonsense as its still PLENTY loud.

I bet they'd still be legal today were it not for hollywood liberals misrepresenting them, and using the name "moderator" or something non-gun nuts wouldn't even recognize, and then have the definition "reduces the sound to below ear-damaging levels" and accordingly classify it as a firearm safety device.
 
lcpiper said:
Almost all modern handguns, and certainly all above .380, are not blow-back operated like many older ones are. Early in the history of automatic handgun development that found that 9mm and larger calibers were too much to hang onto with true blow-back operation. That's when they came up with delayed blow-back operation. that's what they are talking about when they say things about how a pistol will "lock up", etc. Essential the bolt/slide locks into the chamber so that until the round leaves the barrel the bolt doesn't unlock or is at least delayed.

If this duel .45 were truly blow-back operated the force of two .45s, well it would rip itself out of the man's grasp, no way he could hold onto it.
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Interesting, did not know that. This is but one reason I don't design guns. ;)
 
DoubleTap said:
It's deeply stupid beyond just a technical exercise.

The hammers are linked because if the hammers were out of time only one side would fire and it probably wouldn't cycle.

Yet, there are two triggers, almost certainly because if you fired 2 rounds with one trigger, ATF would consider it a machine gun. Two triggers, one mono-hammer - it probably has an interlock on the triggers so they both have to be depressed before it will fire.
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For left handers or right handers or possibly in this case, double-fisters. :eek:
 
They need to do double barrel everything. M16's, M4A1's, AK-47's, Miniguns and RPG etc....
 
lcpiper said:
Interesting you mentioned ATF calling this a machinegun cause I think that is exactly what they will call it even though it doesn't fit the description in a practical way, it does in a technical way.

The ATF's definition.


These handguns definitely, by design, shoot automatically more then one shot without manual reloading by a single function of the trigger.

I just don't think they have cought up with this yet, and that old man is pretty famous and well liked. They probably will just say this doesn't fit the "intent" of the Law/definition.
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ONCE AGAIN THIS IS NOT A MACHINEGUN!!!

Here's a link from the manufacturer citing the BATFE's approval:

http://www.arsenalfirearms.com/news/9

If it were a machinegun it could not be imported. Maybe if people had actually read my post about it being classified as a volley gun they'd understand this. :mad:
 
lcpiper said:
Almost all modern handguns, and certainly all above .380, are not blow-back operated like many older ones are. Early in the history of automatic handgun development that found that 9mm and larger calibers were too much to hang onto with true blow-back operation. That's when they came up with delayed blow-back operation. that's what they are talking about when they say things about how a pistol will "lock up", etc. Essential the bolt/slide locks into the chamber so that until the round leaves the barrel the bolt doesn't unlock or is at least delayed.
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Not quite all.
There is at least one notable exception most people will be familiar with: The .50cal Desert Eagle, which doesn't feature a locking breech but rather is gas operated. It's got a rotating/locking bolt and fixed barrel setup with a gas diverter valve that has much more in common with a (semi-)auto rifle than other hand guns.
 
Note to self - watch out for your DSLR camera while at a firearms display.

I don't know if it was because I had put it on a wooden bench about 6 meters from the shooter, or when I was standing, and I even failed to notice which firearm did it, but I later noticed my Nikon D50 body cracked. There was a remington pump action shotgun, a steyr aug, a beautiful Czech sniper rifle and a bunch of handguns so could have been any of them...
 
Ducman69 said:
Fixed.

*snip* And that's part of the problem, is that in popular culture we call them silencers, and freakin hollywood created the pew-pew whisper sounds, when that's nonsense as its still PLENTY loud.

I bet they'd still be legal today were it not for hollywood liberals misrepresenting them, and using the name "moderator" or something non-gun nuts wouldn't even recognize, and then have the definition "reduces the sound to below ear-damaging levels" and accordingly classify it as a firearm safety device.
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I have fired a suppressed .22 that all you heard when it fired was the empty cartridge casing "pinging" off the ejection port. The shot was a "pfut" just like in the movies. Larger calibers are still very quiet.

Problem is, suppression requires two things to actually work well, you have to control the release of the gasses and you have to use ammo that does not break the sound barrier because the bullets will still "crack" even when suppressed. So, subsonic ammo or no "pfut".
 
Kueller said:
Not quite all.
There is at least one notable exception most people will be familiar with: The .50cal Desert Eagle, which doesn't feature a locking breech but rather is gas operated. It's got a rotating/locking bolt and fixed barrel setup with a gas diverter valve that has much more in common with a (semi-)auto rifle than other hand guns.
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The system was adapted from the M16 and AR-15 rifles.
 
Steve said:
Holy crap, these things don't even look real. To be honest, they look like something you'd see in a video game. :eek: Thanks to cageymaru for the linkage.
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These are Awesome, but at $5,000.00 to $5,500.00, each they have go on my bucket list.

Links to Miculek's website, and the Arsenal Firearms website too.

Jerry Miculek Firing two af-2011-a1-double-barrel pistols, at the same time, in about 1.xx Seconds.

https://www.facebook.com/2677884866...0.1433799366./912973925432863/?type=1&theater

Factory Home page
http://www.arsenalfirearms.com/products/af-2011-a1-double-barrel-pistol
 
lcpiper said:
I have fired a suppressed .22 that all you heard when it fired was the empty cartridge casing "pinging" off the ejection port. The shot was a "pfut" just like in the movies. Larger calibers are still very quiet.

Problem is, suppression requires two things to actually work well, you have to control the release of the gasses and you have to use ammo that does not break the sound barrier because the bullets will still "crack" even when suppressed. So, subsonic ammo or no "pfut".
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Subsonic ammo pretty much useless. Hell, in many cases it can't even cycle a weapon.
 
Grahamkracka said:
Subsonic ammo pretty much useless. Hell, in many cases it can't even cycle a weapon.
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Until you install a lighter recoil spring or adjust the gas valve, depending on the weapon.

Of course if you were serious about suppressed performance, you'd be using something chambered in 300 BLK in the first place.
 
Grahamkracka said:
Subsonic ammo pretty much useless. Hell, in many cases it can't even cycle a weapon.
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Pretty sure 1911s like in this video cycle just fine with subsonic ammo, since .45ACP has always been a subsonic round. ;)
Problem is, suppression requires two things to actually work well, you have to control the release of the gasses and you have to use ammo that does not break the sound barrier because the bullets will still "crack" even when suppressed. So, subsonic ammo or no "pfut".
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That only works on suppressed 22s because you're talking about so little power (reduced even further thanks to the suppressor). And while a suppressed 22 at point blank to the temple surely can kill someone, so too can a simple ice pick as the mafia had shown us with guys like Kid Twist who killed tons of people that way.

A caliber with enough power to generally be considered "very deadly", like a 1911 with its subsonic rounds, will not "pfut" like in the movies, not even close (and that's very high quality gear he has there):
https://youtu.be/T6SvS5wwu9A?t=9m16s

But thanks to hollywood, this is what people think suppressors do (even a suppressed 22 doesn't sound like that, as they are more of a click/clack):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gm0vskvkfM

And so we fear that people will screw one onto a 9mm and be able to shoot someone in the next room and you wouldn't even notice, and so that created big fear and stupid laws against them. :rolleyes: When if anything they simply could have made a minimum decibel limit law, just as there is a maximum decibel limit law for car mufflers, and that way I wouldn't have to double-up using both earplugs and earmuffs at our indoor firing range to keep from damaging my hearing. Besides, any murderer for hire or career criminal knows that you can easily make a decent suppressor from a long automotive oil filter, maglite flashlight, or a Napa 4003 fuel filter.
 
I've shot a surpressed 1911 in 45 acp. Colt series 80 custom with a gaint gemtec suppressor, ran wet with some oil/water mix specifically designed for suppressor use. (Muffles the sound even more when ran wet, for those of you who don't know what I mean. You fill parts of the suppressor with a liquid and it adds to the sound suppression)

Anyways, aside from being extremely fun it is obviously by no means "quiet". Even with the 45 acp being sub sonic, it's still a very loud sound. In gun terms it is definitely quiet, but by all other terms... Not really. You could definitely hear it if you were 100+++ yards away outside for example. Didn't need to wear ear protection, definitely wasn't a painful sound. It's still a loud powerful and unique sound though and it can travel. The main idea is to not alert hostiles or other hunting targets etc that are some what far away from you that would certainly hear an unsuppressed gunshot, as well as not alert surrounding people outside of a building when shooting inside said building. I think it does that job well.

A group of operators with large pistol caliber suppressed pistols/carbines could definitely take out a group of guys inside a building without alerting any buddies outside of that building. Inside though, well they would have to be quick because unless the building is huge anyone inside and nearby in other rooms will still hear suppressed shots. It's definitely not like the movies you're all absolutely right. However suppressed .22 is indeed extremely quiet, very fun. An unsuppressed shot will travel quite far outside.

Also should note that it can decrease the reliability of certain firearns. The suppressor shoots a lot of gas and carbon back into the gun that would typically exit the barrel. The 1911 I shot cycled obviously slower and failed to go into battery once or twice, only needed a little push to get it there but it still can have a negative affect.

Regardless though I think 45 is one of the funnest rounds to shoot suppressed, the sound is very satisfying and the weight of a handgun like the 1911 plus a big can really puts some sustenance in your hands. .22 / .45 / 300blk out would be by far my preferred suppressed choices.
 
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