120Hz LCD Info Thread

cu2cool said:
Has anybody seen the difference between these "True 120Hz" monitors vs a 120Hz HDTV? Is it really noticeable? I've seen 120Hz HDTV's produce jittery artifacts before watching a blu-ray DVD. Would the True 120Hz eliminate this? Do video cards, blu-ray players and cable boxes even output 120Hz frequency? Blu-rays only output 24fps anyways right?

Sorry if these questions sound noobish. I'm just trying to understand more about the 120Hz technology. I like watching the "live" effect on sports channels and some movies @120Hz, but I don't think I can get that effect with my Samsung 27" P2770H.
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The whole problem with HDTV is that it doesn't input at a 120hz or 240hz, but tries to up convert the input, so your getting the same old 480i/p, 720p and 1080i/p up converted to 120hz vs the PC actually inputting and displaying @120fps vs only being able to display truly 60fps. This is just the simplified way of looking at it and there are a lot more technical ways for people here to explain it.
 
OK, so it's possible for PC video cards to output 120fps, but most HDTV's and monitors can only input at 60fps max? Either way Blu-ray only outputs at 24fps? For watching sports through a HTPC though, would the upscaling HDTV still look better than an my current LCD monitor (in sig)? Will the upscaling produce noticeable lag for internet browsing/gaming? Or can it be fixed by lowering the refresh rate to 60Hz?

I'm trying to figure out if upgrading to a 32", 120Hz HDTV would be a better choice or not than what I currently have. Or should I just wait until the "True 120Hz" monitors become mainstream and drop in price?
 
SoFGR said:
We should have info on VG236 very soon yea, if the backlight bleed is minimal ( it f*cking SHOULD BE ! it states LED backlit and 10.000:1 contrast ratio for christ's sake ! ) I'll buy it in a instant, 27" is too much for FPS games imo.
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I, being half blind, am waiting for the PG276. :D
 
I've been gathering some data about 120Hz monitor's input lag.

Data from 3dvision-blog:

- Samsung 2233rz and Viewsonic VX2268WM have 1 or 2 ms of delay to a CRT;

- Acer GD245 has between 0 and 16 ms of delay to Viewsonic VX2268.

Data from FlatpanelsHD:

- Samsung 2233rz has input lag between 0 and 10 ms;

- Alienware AW2310 has input lag between 0 and 8 ms.
 
myself11 said:
I've been gathering some data about 120Hz monitor's input lag.

Data from 3dvision-blog:

- Samsung 2233rz and Viewsonic VX2268WM have 1 or 2 ms of delay to a CRT;

- Acer GD245 has between 0 and 16 ms of delay to Viewsonic VX2268.

Data from FlatpanelsHD:

- Samsung 2233rz has input lag between 0 and 10 ms;

- Alienware AW2310 has input lag between 0 and 8 ms.
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doesn't look very accurate :D

the acer for example has 3 frames input lag which equals 50ms input lag in 60hz mode
and even in the best case szenario (120hz) the max input lag won't be below 25ms

the alienware isn't much better than the acer

the samsung and the viewsonic seem to have only 1 frame lag
 
dowant120hz said:
doesn't look very accurate :D

the acer for example has 3 frames input lag which equals 50ms input lag in 60hz mode
and even in the best case szenario (120hz) the max input lag won't be below 25ms

the alienware isn't much better than the acer

the samsung and the viewsonic seem to have only 1 frame lag
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Source? This one disagrees with you:

http://www.flatpanelshd.com/flatforums/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=3418

If you're looking at digitalversus, they seem to get different input lag results than everyone else.
 
evilsofa said:
Source? This one disagrees with you:

http://www.flatpanelshd.com/flatforums/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=3418

If you're looking at digitalversus, they seem to get different input lag results than everyone else.
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can't remember where it was exactly (3d vision blog?)
but the alienware had 2 frames input lag against a crt there

the flatpanelshd review pretty much screams alienware advertisement
- most pictures 3d renderings from alienware itself
- not revealing how they tested the input lag
- no comparison photos of the input lag
- backlight bleeding much much better than in user photos (hello preselected review-model) ;)

but its not that obvious on every site
its always best to trust the site with the worst results

cu2cool said:
So what about input lag on HDTV monitors? Noticeable? Not Noticeable?
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in general much worse than on tfts
3 frames input lag seems the minimum that hdtvs have over hdmi
and the hdmi 3d frame packing format adds another 2 frames of lag
...not to mention they only allow 60hz input
:mad:
 
So for example, I should stick with my Samsung P2770H over this LG 32LD550? I mostly use my computer for internet browsing, movies, and Live TV through windows media center. I still plan on getting a BD-RW drive, and maybe a cable card HDTV tuner. I don't game at the moment, but maybe in the future.
 
@dowant120hz: where does your data come from? I've read all the reviews I could find and none support you claims.

I've posted 3dvision blog results and they don't match your data. Besides, Bloody doesn't have an Alienware AW2310, so he couldn't test it.

P.S.: I say this with no intention of starting a "war" :p, just want to know so I can buy the best 120hz monitor.
 
Hey

Any news regarding Asus VG236H. According to this video it will be released this month, will it be a world wide release or will it be released in Japan first?

Since there has been absolutely no news regarding Viewsonic's led 3d monitor might as well go with this one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vafrkf8Diy4
 
myself11 said:
@dowant120hz: where does your data come from? I've read all the reviews I could find and none support you claims.

I've posted 3dvision blog results and they don't match your data. Besides, Bloody doesn't have an Alienware AW2310, so he couldn't test it.

P.S.: I say this with no intention of starting a "war" :p, just want to know so I can buy the best 120hz monitor.
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its possible that i mistook the alienware input lag with the upcoming lg's lag
but haven't really seen any alienware<>crt photos either...

there really isn't a "best" 120hz tft out there right now
every one has its disadvantages
you need to choose which points are most important to you
 
Is there any advantage in using, say, an xbox 360 on a 120hz monitor? Or is the benefit primarily to pc use?
 
samsonite said:
Hey

Any news regarding Asus VG236H. According to this video it will be released this month, will it be a world wide release or will it be released in Japan first?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vafrkf8Diy4
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Are the 3D glasses a requirement to use this monitor? I noticed in the video the 3D effect so I need some clarification on this. Do these 120hz lcds have a switch or some means to turn them to normal viewing mode? I'm not interested in the 3D effect just the 120hz feature.
 
samduhman said:
Are the 3D glasses a requirement to use this monitor? I noticed in the video the 3D effect so I need some clarification on this. Do these 120hz lcds have a switch or some means to turn them to normal viewing mode? I'm not interested in the 3D effect just the 120hz feature.
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It's the other way around there is a dependency - if you want to do 3D you need a 120hz display.

The display itself is just a 120hz lcd - it can be used quite happily in 2D with the 120hz making motion look very smooth.
 
dowant120hz said:
doesn't look very accurate :D

the acer for example has 3 frames input lag which equals 50ms input lag in 60hz mode
and even in the best case szenario (120hz) the max input lag won't be below 25ms

the alienware isn't much better than the acer

the samsung and the viewsonic seem to have only 1 frame lag
Click to expand...

Don't quote Digital Versus in terms of input lag. They are totally inaccurate.

I have the GD235HZ and there is no way in h3ll that it has 3+ frames of lag.
 
120hz LCD TVs are somewhat a gimmick but since bluray is 1080p/24 it goes into 120hz evenly when with 60hz you need 3:2 pulldown and it drives me crazy.

But 120hz is most definitely more useful on a monitor + PC because you can actually output 120hz
 
10e said:
Don't quote Digital Versus in terms of input lag. They are totally inaccurate.

I have the GD235HZ and there is no way in h3ll that it has 3+ frames of lag.
Click to expand...

gotta check this against a crt
subjective opinions are useless in terms of input lag (sorry)
 
dowant120hz said:
gotta check this against a crt
subjective opinions are useless in terms of input lag (sorry)
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I have a VGA splitter I can try with the CRT, but that only proves the VGA input lag speed of the GD235HZ, which theoretically should be higher due to Analog to Digital translation, but no guarantees.

If I could get a DVI splitter and use it with a DVI to VGA cable on the CRT then that would be most accurate. But the clone mode introduces variances that do not exist in practice. This is what Digital Versus and TFT central use, unfortunately.
 
Ouc then that totaly sux. I was hoping than nvidia 3d and sony 3d use same technology so you could use same setup (maybe just diffrent glasses) for both of them.
 
why isn't this thread stickied? I always have to search for it. :confused:

So whats the general consensus? What will be the best 120hz 23+ monitor to buy once the Viewsonic and Asus models release?

I'm biased towards Asus because I currently own an Asus vk266h which has been very nice but like all LCDs with an eagle eye (plus comparing next to CRT) you'll see ghosting. However the Viewsonic LED feature sounds like it may be the way to go....I'm on the fence. Hope I'll be able to hold out for some reviews. :D

While my 26" is great for FPS it can be demanding for RTS and WoW type games. It takes an extra couple micro seconds to travel that pointer across the screen. ;) That's why I don't mind downsizing to a 23.6.....or who knows I might get greedy and go for the Asus 27" :D
 
samduhman said:
why isn't this thread stickied? I always have to search for it. :confused:

So whats the general consensus? What will be the best 120hz 23+ monitor to buy once the Viewsonic and Asus models release?

I'm biased towards Asus because I currently own an Asus vk266h which has been very nice but like all LCDs with an eagle eye (plus comparing next to CRT) you'll see ghosting. However the Viewsonic LED feature sounds like it may be the way to go....I'm on the fence. Hope I'll be able to hold out for some reviews. :D

While my 26" is great for FPS it can be demanding for RTS and WoW type games. It takes an extra couple micro seconds to travel that pointer across the screen. ;) That's why I don't mind downsizing to a 23.6.....or who knows I might get greedy and go for the Asus 27" :D
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Lol, the resolution is the same (1920x1080), so from that point of view nothing would change... :D
 
Nightofday said:
Bump

Any word on lg W2363D seem it was est to be out in May here its all most June now.
It dose seem to be out in Japan now tho all the webs sits iv looked at are dated back in Jan.
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It should be here soon I guess.

FlatpanelsHD has a review coming up soon. They have the monitor now:
LG W2363D received
 
mistar said:
It should be here soon I guess.

FlatpanelsHD has a review coming up soon. They have the monitor now:
LG W2363D received
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Thanks for the heads up, looking forward to seeing the review. Really want to avoid Canada's tax changes this July so its either this monitor or the acer. I was going for Viewsonic LED 3D monitor or the Asus VG236H but those monitors will be available later this year.
 
hey

Does anyone know when LG W2363D is going to be out in North America? Might as well go with Acer.

thanks
 
dowant120hz said:
can't remember where it was exactly (3d vision blog?)
but the alienware had 2 frames input lag against a crt there

the flatpanelshd review pretty much screams alienware advertisement
- most pictures 3d renderings from alienware itself
- not revealing how they tested the input lag
- no comparison photos of the input lag
- backlight bleeding much much better than in user photos (hello preselected review-model) ;)
Click to expand...

They're using their own input lag software. It's found in the menu to the left.

Backlight bleeding can vary, you know :)
 
mistar said:
They're using their own input lag software. It's found in the menu to the left.

Backlight bleeding can vary, you know :)
Click to expand...
of course it can vary slightly
the ccfl and leds are not quality-checked after all
but buying the alienware really seems like a lottery
the worst backlight bleeding photos i have seen are all from the alienware

myself11 said:
Asus VG236H (120 Hz) is also available at digitalversus.
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0-2 frames input lag
thats even worse than 2 steady frames of lag
very disappointing :(

http://www.digitalversus.com/duels.php?ty=6&ma1=150&mo1=749&p1=8913&ma2=41&ph=12
 
I'm interested to see what FlatPanelsHD thinks of the LG W2363D, it might be the panel to beat here.

The input lag on that new Asus is pretty disappointing, especially when a key feature of the 120hz displays is responsiveness. Any confirmation on the lag from other sources?
 
Take any input lag tests with a big grain of salt. Each review site has their own way of testing it, some more accurately than others. For example, http://www.digitalversus.com/duels.php?ty=6&ma1=150&mo1=749&p1=8913&ma2=41&ph=12 shows a nice little chart of the VG236 input lag over 10 frames. At 120hz, you get 120 frames per second (duh) so it takes 8.33ms for each frame. That chart is bouncing between 33ms (4 frames at 120hz) and 0ms lag; odd. Maybe it wasn't set to 120hz or maybe they tested with bad settings or clone mode instead of splitter cable etc.

Some sites get a little more in-depth, like this good one on the LG input lag: http://3dvision-blog.com/a-little-about-the-input-lag-of-the-lg-w2363d-120hz-lcd-monitor/

Backlight bleeding is a far more obvious problem when it occurs, its the only thing that annoys me with the Acer. Otherwise if you are still sitting on the fence, just get a 120hz already, its worth it.
 
Ritorix said:
Take any input lag tests with a big grain of salt. Each review site has their own way of testing it, some more accurately than others. For example, http://www.digitalversus.com/duels.php?ty=6&ma1=150&mo1=749&p1=8913&ma2=41&ph=12 shows a nice little chart of the VG236 input lag over 10 frames. At 120hz, you get 120 frames per second (duh) so it takes 8.33ms for each frame. That chart is bouncing between 33ms (4 frames at 120hz) and 0ms lag; odd. Maybe it wasn't set to 120hz or maybe they tested with bad settings or clone mode instead of splitter cable etc.

Some sites get a little more in-depth, like this good one on the LG input lag: http://3dvision-blog.com/a-little-about-the-input-lag-of-the-lg-w2363d-120hz-lcd-monitor/

Backlight bleeding is a far more obvious problem when it occurs, its the only thing that annoys me with the Acer. Otherwise if you are still sitting on the fence, just get a 120hz already, its worth it.
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digitalversus is testing at 60hz since crts cant do 120hz at 1920x1080
so if you divide by ~16ms you get the the correct number of frames

the other review pretty much fails
testing a tft with varible input lag against another tft with varible input lag :rolleyes:
you just need a crt to get accurate results
 
dowant120hz said:
digitalversus is testing at 60hz since crts cant do 120hz at 1920x1080
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Any CRT that can handle ~140khz will run 1920x1080@120hz. My Mitsubishi 2070SB is one and I think the Sony GDM-F520 is capable at 137khz, but don't quote me on that.

I do wish this fact was more widely known by professional reviewers.
 
sadbuttrue said:
Any CRT that can handle ~140khz will run 1920x1080@120hz. My Mitsubishi 2070SB is one and I think the Sony GDM-F520 is capable at 137khz, but don't quote me on that.

I do wish this fact was more widely known by professional reviewers.
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Agreed, but the issue here is that, if using a VGA splitter, most, if not all 120hz LCD monitors cannot do 120hz over VGA. This is the difficulty testing even with a splitter.

I still have the Acer GD235HZ, and I will try (soon) to find the highest available refresh it has over VGA, and test vs my CRT at this refresh.

Some have been known to get 80+hz over VGA. One user here got 84hz on an older LG L227WT-G, so you never know.

I would do it ASAP, but I'm moving my office and my desk cannot support my trio of screens all at the same time, so I'm naturally looking for a new one that's a little bit bigger :)
 
LCD monitors don't have variable lag. It's the testing methods that are flawed. DigitalVersus continues to publish nonsensical results without realizing anything is wrong, so why do people still take that site seriously? The results are obviously screwed up. It's not possible for lag to vary like that. They have similar screwed up results for several other monitors:
http://www.digitalversus.com/duels.php?ty=6&ma1=88&mo1=752&p1=8953&ma2=23&mo2=694&p2=7961&ph=12

Also, it's possible to test lag accurately even if the refresh rates of the monitors don't match. Prad has such a tool, but the numbers are hard to read because they jumble together, and some of their own reviewers don't even know how to use the tool properly, leading to inaccurate results.

You have to be careful about relying on inaccurate test results. If the results are not 100% consistent, then the results are not accurate.

Here's an in-depth discussion about lag testing: http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1499273

My conclusion is if we want to test 120 Hz monitors accurately, then we need to refine Prad's method to be more readable. With that method, the resolution and the refresh rate of the CRT won't matter, and clone mode won't cause any problems. All you need to do is find the latest number from both monitors to determine the lag.
 
sadbuttrue said:
Any CRT that can handle ~140khz will run 1920x1080@120hz. My Mitsubishi 2070SB is one and I think the Sony GDM-F520 is capable at 137khz, but don't quote me on that.

I do wish this fact was more widely known by professional reviewers.
Click to expand...

wow that really works
my lacie electron 22 blue iv also can
but our crts are pretty rare and expensive

the gdm-f520 probably won't allow anything above 137khz which is not enough
and i don't know of any other widely available crts that can

the review sites are probably all using some cheap ass crt that was lying around somewhere and don't feel like spending a few hundred bucks ;)
 
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