Looks like Windows 7 is color aware

D

daveswantek

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Hi, All

I have been playing with the release version of Win7 build 7600 64 bit and it looks to me like it is color aware. If you go into the advanced display properties there is a calibration wizard and some help topics that explain both ICC and WCS profiles. I created a profile with the wizard and I can see it load at boot up.

This is not proof that Windows 7 is color aware, but it definate looks that way.

As time permits I will create a ICC profile with my iOne Display 2 and then compare images in Photoshop to the same out side photoshop.

I started this thread so others can chime in. I really hope that this is true, because it is long over due.

Dave
 
Windows 7 is supposed to be colour aware and indeed is.
Has been discussed mucho already :)
 
It affects your monitor.
ie if you have a wide gamut monitor, it will be handled better than current OS's.
If you dont have a wide gamut monitor, then it matters little as long as you try not to display wide gamut material (of which there is very little in the mainstream).
Current games are not wide gamut as only 8 bits per colour has been made available by the gfx card drivers.
I dont anticipate seeing this change for some time until wide gamut is in use much more.
ie Blu Ray, the HDMI standards and some displays are wide gamut capable but there is no wide gamut material yet.
 
Nevermind, I'll have to sleep before posting anything on internet. Sorry, didn't find the delete option :eek:
 
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Nenu said:
It affects your monitor.
ie Blu Ray, the HDMI standards and some displays are wide gamut capable but there is no wide gamut material yet.
Click to expand...

Nor will there be unless there is a new blu-ray spec, since none of the blu-ray codecs support wide gamut sources. Of course you could master material with the expectation that they will be shown on wide gamut displays but that would be weird in the absence of any spec - I think you were referring to the expanded xvYCC color spaces, with more than 8 bits/color that the HDMI spec supports, however blu-ray (and the defunct HD-DVD) does not support this color space.
 
Many players and HDTVs are hdmi 1.3 compliant already, meaning they are xvycc (x.v.color) and 10 to 16 bits/colour ready.
Wide gamut camcorders already support the xvycc compliant AVCHD and HDV codecs, a different variation may be used for Blu Ray.
So the hardware is ready, we now await the media.
 
I sure hope you can prove that Windows 7 RTM is natively color aware for everything. No one has been able to prove it yet...
 
mike_j_johnson said:
I sure hope you can prove that Windows 7 RTM is natively color aware for everything. No one has been able to prove it yet...
Click to expand...

I found proof on google.
There are numerous reports that it works and some decent testing as proof.
 
Hmmm...

The new QCMS color management system introduced in Firefox 3.5 currently only supports ICC version 2 color profiles, not version 4.

Assuming that Windows 7 will support ICC version 4 as well as ICC version 2 and assuming Firefox hasn't fixed that omission yet - does that mean that the O.S. will take precedence and when we run Firefox it will display ICC version 4?
 
Nenu said:
I found proof on google.
There are numerous reports that it works and some decent testing as proof.
Click to expand...

By all means, prove it with a link then ...
If all you can find on the subject is some forum posts claiming success (where there are just as many claiming it not to work) it doesn't really prove anything.

Some searching revealed this post of yours:
http://www.hardforum.com/showpost.php?p=1034133329&postcount=7

Where you quote this from wikipedia:
Support for color depths of 30-bit and 48-bit is included, along with the wide color gamut scRGB (which for HDMI 1.3 can be converted and output as xvYCC). The video modes supported in Windows 7 are 16-bit sRGB, 24-bit sRGB, 30-bit sRGB, 30-bit with extended color gamut sRGB, and 48-bit scRGB
Click to expand...

And another part of your post:
A quick summary of its support in Win7, confirming the Windows Colour System (WCS) is ready
http://news.softpedia.com/news/Windo...rt-98741.shtml
Click to expand...

Is that your proof?

No one is debating whether Windows 7 supports different color depths or that color conversion is possible, which is all what the above is about. The question is whether non-color-aware applications will have it's gamut converted or not. The fact that you presented the above as 'proof' for that it is (though in another thread) suggest that you don't know what you're talking about.

The last I read on the subject was a depressing post from a microsoft blog (or microsoft employee's blog) presenting the solution, which basically meant that all applications had to be color-aware (just that MS would do their best to make it easier for the developers).

I'm sorry that I can't provide a link for that though and I don't know how official it was so you could take it with a grain of salt.
Point is, if you have proof - present it. If not, please don't say that you have.
 
If you dont have a wide gamut display then there is no issue with non colour aware applications (such as games).

For wide gamut displays, you can set the colour mode manually and tweak it if you wish using Windows 7's calibration tool.
This article explains it.
http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,2845,2348419,00.asp
if you have a wide gamut display, and you want to calibrate it for gaming and normal desktop use, you might want to set it for sRGB. Once set up for sRGB, you can use the Windows 7 calibration tool to get the color output that's most accurate.
Click to expand...
 
Nenu said:
If you dont have a wide gamut display then there is no issue with non colour aware applications (such as games).

For wide gamut displays, you can set the colour mode manually and tweak it if you wish using Windows 7's calibration tool.
This article explains it.
http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,2845,2348419,00.asp
Click to expand...

I'm still using 7100, but it doesn't force sRGB on non-aware programs. It doesn't even manage the desktop. No change from vista, other than the very nifty calibration tool.
 
This has come up several times and people who actually know what they are doing (like 10e) actually installed Win7 to test this.

The result is there is essentially no change from Vista (which only has marginal changes from XP).

Non color managed apps do not become color managed.
 
Snowdog said:
This has come up several times and people who actually know what they are doing (like 10e) actually installed Win7 to test this.

The result is there is essentially no change from Vista (which only has marginal changes from XP).

Non color managed apps do not become color managed.
Click to expand...

Ha! I just usually try stuff until I stumble onto a theory that sounds right :)

Win7 RC1 is not color managing the desktop at the moment from what I can see. The calibration wizard specifically says (in RC1) that it will not work properly for wide gamut screens, and that colors will be improperly mapped. It reads this info from the auto set or manually set ICM profile which will always list the chromacity/gamut of the screen. So unless Dave is using a newer version with new features I'd think it isn't different, though I'm just assuming that currently.

On a different note, I've used ELDIM and SoftMCCS and the NEC 2690, Dell 2209WA and 2709W DO provide gamut and color temperature info through EDID. Another screen I've tried (BenQ G2400W) does not.

I have had more success in XP and Win7 with ATI's CCC "pseudo gamut conversion" color temperature from EDID control. The wide gamut effect is completely gone from desktop and non-color managed apps, and the only difference from sRGB is the reds seem a bit dark and "burgundy", but other colors are quite close to sRGB in comparison to my Dell 2209WA. Photos put up between my NEC 2690 or Dell 2709W look identical (by eye) to my calibrated Dell 2209WA at similar brightness levels.

Alternatively in color managed "profile aware" apps the color is under saturated because there are TWO gamut tranformations/conversions (theoretically) taking place. BUT the possibility exists that I could calibrate my NEC 2690 with this control on, and use the sRGB profile as the default, and then the gamut conversion will only happen in the video card. Having tried this in XP I got a standard DE94 of 0.50 and a maximum deviation of 1.10 going by memory. This was when I set the EDID color temperature in the ATI Control panel to ON, and ran Spectraview II to calibrate the monitor's Look up table with sRGB gamma as the target, no color comp, and max (not auto) brightness, which I then manually adjusted to zero via monitor's OSD.

The ICM profile produced by spectraview is a non-gamma changing profile, so it's a good test profile to use for these tests. Unfortunately for monitors without built-in LUT adjustments the problem would still exist because it might be difficult to load one ICM profile into the graphics card's LUT and then use an sRGB profile in Photoshop or FireFox. I'll try this too but I hate complex hacks/workarounds for things that should have already been addressed (gamut conversion) by O/S. Alternatively since most apps are NOT color managed this could address most things. Videos are still not changed by this control though, so a shader or gamut "friendly" video player like the Media Player Classic with the shader option might help here. It's probably a video overlay thing (theoretically) as to why videos are still over saturated on wide gamut screens in Windows Media Player (in XP and Win7 RC1).

I'll try that sometime this week. I'm reinstalling both XP and Win7 due to about twenty video card and driver swaps and some driver issues I've experienced, but I'll stick to the ATI cards for some time while my nVidia cards are being RMA'd due to three failures (!!!) recently. But, it would be nice if one could achieve a calibrated wide gamut set up without having to use specific, non standard sRGB profiles on certain apps.

Sorry if this seems off-topic, but if there is a way to manage the "wide gamutness" of a screen I'd like to find a proper procedure to do it (even if it's slightly kludgy). Having now viewed my NEC and Dell wide gamut screens in this mode I very much prefer it to blown out reds and greens.
 
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daveswantek said:
10e said:
Ha! I just usually try stuff until I stumble onto a theory that sounds right :)

Win7 RC1 is not color managing the desktop at the moment from what I can see. The calibration wizard specifically says (in RC1) that it will not work properly for wide gamut screens, and that colors will be improperly mapped. It reads this info from the auto set or manually set ICM profile which will always list the chromacity/gamut of the screen. So unless Dave is using a newer version with new features I'd think it isn't different, though I'm just assuming that currently.
Click to expand...

I am using the final release of Win7 build 7600.16384.090710-1945. It looks to me like the UI is color-aware, because I can see the colors change when the profile is loaded. I think it is still not clear what if anything happens with non-aware apps. I am betting it depends on how the app was written. As for games, I think they do their own thing with the GPU, so I doubt they are effected.

For anyone who cares to know; I got this release off of a private tracker (bittorrent). I will buy a legit license when they are available, because this OS is much better than Vista. It runs as fast as XP on up to date H/W.

Dave
Click to expand...
 
Note that calibration has two steps.

A: Gamma curve correction, which will affect everything on your desktop. This is what is loaded into the LUTs on your video card. Pretty much everything but most games will see this effect.

B: Color co-ordinate profile. This is not a correction, it is just information. This is only used by color aware applications, to map between the different color range of monitors.

You would see the effects of "A" if you gamma curve is off a bit to start with.

But I seriously doubt that "B" is affecting everything.

Load an image up in Firefox with color profiling active and the same image in IE. Are they magically the same now?
 
A: Gamma curve correction, which will affect everything on your desktop. This is what is loaded into the LUTs on your video card. Pretty much everything but most games will see this effect.
Click to expand...


Just to clarify, every game can be forced to use calibrated gamma curve corrections by locking the gamma sliders so games cannot reset them when they are started. Powerstrip and Monitor Calibration Wizard are ones.


The question is, does Windows 7 do the option B too natively, and does it filter everything, even non color aware applications, through it so we could get gamut conversion? That would be so neat in games. But reports so far has been negative, Win7 doesnt do that and we still have to suffer from widegamut color problems.
 
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I'd agree with Snowdog on this. I don't think Windows 7 on its own is managing color co-ordinate profiles, because my wallpaper and pictures in IE8 are still showing super saturation on my Dell 2709W and NEC, and look properly saturated on my 2209WA. This is why I talked about the ATI control option, because with it on, non-color managed apps and desktop look almost perfect saturation wise.

Keep in mind, if you load a color profile into the graphics card LUT or color lookup table, changes will show and make it closer to proper calibration, but gamut transformation is still not taking place. Reds and greens will still look too bold.

The best way to find this out, is load an image into FireFox with color management enabled, and then load the same image on as a wallpaper or in IE, and the reds and greens will be much more natural in FireFox. Photoshop also would show this, alternatively because it is also properly color managed and performs gamut transformation.

Thanks for the info Dave. I'm looking forward to Win7 as well, as it's a nice improvement over Vista the Beasta.
 
daveswantek said:
daveswantek said:
I am using the final release of Win7 build 7600.16384.090710-1945. It looks to me like the UI is color-aware, because I can see the colors change when the profile is loaded. I think it is still not clear what if anything happens with non-aware apps. I am betting it depends on how the app was written. As for games, I think they do their own thing with the GPU, so I doubt they are effected.

For anyone who cares to know; I got this release off of a private tracker (bittorrent). I will buy a legit license when they are available, because this OS is much better than Vista. It runs as fast as XP on up to date H/W.

Dave
Click to expand...

Are you comparing side-by-side with an sRGB monitor? The colors will change when it loads a profile, but that doesn't mean it mapped sRGB to the gamut of your monitor. Try comparing the picture of the butte between a wide gamut and sRGB display.

Actually, one thing seems to have changed from Vista. Maybe I'm just stupid, but I never had any luck setting separate profiles on two monitors in Vista. It always used the same profile on both monitors, but 7 works properly.
Click to expand...
 
nomu said:
daveswantek said:
Are you comparing side-by-side with an sRGB monitor? The colors will change when it loads a profile, but that doesn't mean it mapped sRGB to the gamut of your monitor. Try comparing the picture of the butte between a wide gamut and sRGB display.

Actually, one thing seems to have changed from Vista. Maybe I'm just stupid, but I never had any luck setting separate profiles on two monitors in Vista. It always used the same profile on both monitors, but 7 works properly.
Click to expand...

All I am saying at this point is that MS took some steps forward on this issue. The question that we all want answered is did they get it right. That is why I started this thread, so we can kick it arround and form some colclusions.

This issue will get more interesting when the release version becomes widely available.

Dave
Click to expand...
 
Well dang,

After installing the correct Dell driver for my 2709W, I went back to the calibration wizard in Windows 7 and was promptly informed that Windows does not support wide gamut monitors.

In other news, my eye one software will not work on Win7. There is a new version 3.2 that will work on the 64 bit version of Vista, so hopfully they will support Win7 when it is officially available.

My next display will not be wide gamut, because this situation sux.

Dave
 
daveswantek said:
Well dang,

After installing the correct Dell driver for my 2709W, I went back to the calibration wizard in Windows 7 and was promptly informed that Windows does not support wide gamut monitors.
Click to expand...

:eek:

I generally try to warn people away from wide gamut, because it is a hassle right now and 99% of people will get no benefit.

Everything is largely in sRGB color space, DVD is and even Blu Ray movies are. Wide gamut is just a hassle for most of us.

It is too bad that there was such a mass move to wide gamut, which I think was largely driven by the marketing department, which got to increase a number on the spec sheet.

Maybe the massive popularity of the 2209wa will help point out that people still want sRGB monitors.
 
Every Windows OS is "color aware", that just means they support color profiles for color aware applicatinos. The desktop and GUI however are NOT color aware, which means they (and other non-aware apps) will not use your selected profile.
 
I started this thread so others can chime in. I really hope that this is true, because it is long over due.
Click to expand...
Windows 7 will implement a suitable CMM like Windows Vista or MacOS. But that leads -even in mandatory conjunction with a correct display profile- not to color awareness for all applications. "Color Management from the bottom" is not the way to go. The applications must know that a CMM exists so that they can use it (source RGB tripel, source profile => CMM (having access to the correct display profile) => transformed RGB tripel). Of course the OS manufacturer can make parts of his integrated applications color aware (e.g. the desktop in implying sRGB as source color space) which would be desirable.

Best regards

Denis
 
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10e said:
The best way to find this out, is load an image into FireFox with color management enabled, .....
Click to expand...
The best way to tell which parts of your system is color managed is to load up a color profile that does not correspond to your monitor (and I mean profile, the B part that Snowdog mentioned, not the VCGT calibration, which is the A part).

Parts that show weird colros: color managed
Parts that show normal colors: not color managed
 
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